Wagner’s Germany: An Axis Victory TL

[Tonrich]

For Portugal, I wasn't in particular thinking Salazar would be overthrown. Greece is in a somewhat difficult position given Mussolini's ambitions, how they will be resolved remains to be seen. Holland is coming under increasingly heavy German influence, but Sweden less so, at least at the moment. Switzerland will remain relatively unaffected.

I would think Portugal would be the perfect "Neutral" partner that would be able to import export and be an intermediary between countries in South America. Sweden and Switzerland are basically minor mirrors of the Portugal situation.

Greece should be the farthest thing from Mussolini's mind as he now has the whole NE corner of Africa. His raw material discoveries in Libia and the acquisition of Egypt should put the Italian economy on firm footing. Plus his resources should be spent improving the infrastructure in this area. He also still needs major improvement in his armed forces from and equipment and training standpoint.

This is an interesting possible course of action, and one which if pursued would in time result in considerable gains, but my sense is that the German leadership would be reluctant to prioritize such an effort at the same time as the coming war. As such, it represents an opportunity which Wagner does (at least for the time being) miss.

You're right. This undertaking would be difficult while you're in a shooting war. This would have been needed to be planned out prior to the invasion of Poland and then phased in over the proceeding years. Where this will be very profitable is in the Polish territory with large relatively flat farmland and then in the Ukraine area. They could settle that area kind of how America did with the west; every German moving out there gets 200 acres and a tractor! That would kick start your food production quickly.

 

[CrimsonKing]

I would think Portugal would be the perfect "Neutral" partner that would be able to import export and be an intermediary between countries in South America. Sweden and Switzerland are basically minor mirrors of the Portugal situation.

Greece should be the farthest thing from Mussolini's mind as he now has the whole NE corner of Africa. His raw material discoveries in Libia and the acquisition of Egypt should put the Italian economy on firm footing. Plus his resources should be spent improving the infrastructure in this area. He also still needs major improvement in his armed forces from and equipment and training standpoint.

A good point about Portugal's position facilitating trans-Atlantic trade.

I fully agree that Mussolini should set aside further expansion. Judging by his historical actions, though, what he should do and what he actually will do are not necessarily the same.

You're right. This undertaking would be difficult while you're in a shooting war. This would have been needed to be planned out prior to the invasion of Poland and then phased in over the proceeding years. Where this will be very profitable is in the Polish territory with large relatively flat farmland and then in the Ukraine area. They could settle that area kind of how America did with the west; every German moving out there gets 200 acres and a tractor! That would kick start your food production quickly.

A program of agricultural mechanization before the war was something I actually did consider. The thing is, I'm trying not to have Wagner be such a skillful leader that he makes the correct decision at all times, meaning that he does on occasion make subobtimal choices. That said, the suggestion will be noted for possible use after the SU's defeat, which also raises the possibility of using the former Soviet tractor industry.

 

[Cregan]

Forget about the German settlers taking large tracts of agricultural land though, that's a sure-fire way to piss off the Poles and Ukrainians.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

How is Japan handling it's new territories? Puppetization is fairly typical for them, but without open war, apart from Singapore which doubtlessly is now a major IJN and IJAAF base, is it full occupation or simply military bases?

 

[Benjamin the Donkey]

Forget about the German settlers taking large tracts of agricultural land though, that's a sure-fire way to piss off the Poles and Ukrainians.

But if Wagners's concerned with remaining true to Hitler's vision, as discussed above, he has to gain Lebensraum for German colonization in the east. That would make more sense with Poland, as it's right next door and could be annexed directly. (But what to do with all those Poles? Would he be as ruthless as Hitler?) With the Ukrainians and Belorussians, it would probably make more sense to set up "independent" puppet states in exchange for their help fighting the Soviets. The Baltic states and Finland would probably also have their independence restored--a move that would help Germany's image abroad.

Of course, this would mean he's fought two wars against three major powers for nothing but Poland, in terms of territory. But the collapse of the Soviets, the recent concessions from Britain, the nominal alliance with France and the integrated common market would make Germany the unquestioned master of Europe. Assuming Wagner knows how to quit when he's ahead and no war with the US (and no mass genocide), he'd be remembered as Germany's greatest leader.

 

[NoMommsen]

@Benjamin the Donkey
TBH, I haven't got a picture on how much or how radical of a 'racist' - esp. compared to Hitler, Himmler OTL - he actually is. I'm quite sure he was a racist, as he had to be becomming a right-wing leader. But to what extend ?
Is he an 'extinguish-them-all' or more kind of : 'the jews (or poles) are our misery ... but my laddy Abrahmson (or Kosslowsky) two floors upwards is really a nice guy - as long as he doesn't date my daughter.' (like most of the germans/europeans at that time were).

IF Wagner is more of the latter kind, I could see him taking a position of (more or less slowly) trying to let the Poles vanish in time, becomming some kind of 'folklore group' like the Sorbs and Kashubians.
For the (at some point in future) former russian peoples, there is still the possibility to draw on some varagian strings to give them (Ruthenians, Ukrainians) a position to be ... 'incorporated' into the germanic family (to some extent).

At least these would be positions 'fitting' Wagners more 'sensible' approach to things.

 

[Benjamin the Donkey]

@Benjamin the Donkey
TBH, I haven't got a picture on how much or how radical of a 'racist' - esp. compared to Hitler, Himmler OTL - he actually is. I'm quite sure he was a racist, as he had to be becomming a right-wing leader. But to what extend ?
Is he an 'extinguish-them-all' or more kind of : 'the jews (or poles) are our misery ... but my laddy Abrahmson (or Kosslowsky) two floors upwards is really a nice guy - as long as he doesn't date my daughter.' (like most of the germans/europeans at that time were).

IF Wagner is more of the latter kind, I could see him taking a position of (more or less slowly) trying to let the Poles vanish in time, becomming some kind of 'folklore group' like the Sorbs and Kashubians.
For the (at some point in future) former russian peoples, there is still the possibility to draw on some varagian strings to give them (Ruthenians, Ukrainians) a position to be ... 'incorporated' into the germanic family (to some extent).

At least these would be positions 'fitting' Wagners more 'sensible' approach to things.

Correct on Europe's low-level, garden-variety racism--and it was the same in the US. In image terms, freeing the Baltic States and Finland would gain him points internationally, and as long as his persecution of the Jews wasn't too extreme, his defenders could counter that the same "Don't marry my daughter / Stay in your own neighborhoods" attitude prevailed in the US--and it was institutionally far worse for blacks.

 

[Tonrich]

I fully agree that Mussolini should set aside further expansion. Judging by his historical actions, though, what he should do and what he actually will do are not necessarily the same.
.

Ain't that the truth...

A program of agricultural mechanization before the war was something I actually did consider. The thing is, I'm trying not to have Wagner be such a skillful leader that he makes the correct decision at all times, meaning that he does on occasion make suboptimal choices. That said, the suggestion will be noted for possible use after the SU's defeat, which also raises the possibility of using the former Soviet tractor industry.

I absolutely understand. This was not meant as criticism in any way shape or form. I am loving this TL and thoroughly enjoying reading all the different ideas and thoughts all the readers are bringing to the table. Keep it going....

 

[Linense]

A doubt: What will be the expansion of fascism (especially Falangism) in Latin America? In those OTL years there were several Latin American rulers who carried out pro-fascist policies. Will Francoist Spain use this to be classified by Wagner as the main European political ally of the 3rd Reich in the international sphere, beating Mussolini's Italy and General Petain's France?

 

[NoMommsen]

A doubt: What will be the expansion of fascism (especially Falangism) in Latin America? In those OTL years there were several Latin American rulers who carried out pro-fascist policies. Will Francoist Spain use this to be classified by Wagner as the main European political ally of the 3rd Reich in the international sphere, beating Mussolini's Italy and General Petain's France?

Counterquestion : how could Franco use this to improve his position ?
Wagner wouldn't need him to "talk" to the south american caudillios. That's what he has his Abwehr-agents and dipolmats for.

 

[traveller76]

Counterquestion : how could Franco use this to improve his position ?
Wagner wouldn't need him to "talk" to the south american caudillios. That's what he has his Abwehr-agents and dipolmats for.

Obtain weapon licenses and surplus weapons from the Germans. German investment in Spanish industry and agriculture.

 

[Tonrich]

Counterquestion : how could Franco use this to improve his position ?
Wagner wouldn't need him to "talk" to the south american caudillios. That's what he has his Abwehr-agents and dipolmats for.

Wagner will need to tread lightly here. The USA will be very protective of any influence in all the "Americas". Getting rambunctious at this stage would do nothing but get the US angry, and he has other things he needs to take care of first!

 

[NoMommsen]

@Tonrich you got a point there.

But would it be 'easier' then for Wagner to act through Franco as a middleman ? Won't the US see behind this role-play ?

 

[Tonrich]

@Tonrich you got a point there.

But would it be 'easier' then for Wagner to act through Franco as a middleman ? Won't the US see behind this role-play ?

You know I keep forgetting about the armistice. I keep thinking that Germany needs to find ways to beat the blockade. I think you're right, when the time comes Wagner will deal with them himself. In the meantime Portugal can sort of grease the skids with some of the South American countries.

 

[CrimsonKing]

How is Japan handling it's new territories? Puppetization is fairly typical for them, but without open war, apart from Singapore which doubtlessly is now a major IJN and IJAAF base, is it full occupation or simply military bases?

As a general rule, it depends on the economic importance of the area, with the more important ones being more directly controlled. The Japanese Empire will be described in a future chapter.

Forget about the German settlers taking large tracts of agricultural land though, that's a sure-fire way to piss off the Poles and Ukrainians.

But if Wagners's concerned with remaining true to Hitler's vision, as discussed above, he has to gain Lebensraum for German colonization in the east. That would make more sense with Poland, as it's right next door and could be annexed directly. (But what to do with all those Poles? Would he be as ruthless as Hitler?) With the Ukrainians and Belorussians, it would probably make more sense to set up "independent" puppet states in exchange for their help fighting the Soviets. The Baltic states and Finland would probably also have their independence restored--a move that would help Germany's image abroad.

Of course, this would mean he's fought two wars against three major powers for nothing but Poland, in terms of territory. But the collapse of the Soviets, the recent concessions from Britain, the nominal alliance with France and the integrated common market would make Germany the unquestioned master of Europe. Assuming Wagner knows how to quit when he's ahead and no war with the US (and no mass genocide), he'd be remembered as Germany's greatest leader.

@Benjamin the Donkey
TBH, I haven't got a picture on how much or how radical of a 'racist' - esp. compared to Hitler, Himmler OTL - he actually is. I'm quite sure he was a racist, as he had to be becomming a right-wing leader. But to what extend ?
Is he an 'extinguish-them-all' or more kind of : 'the jews (or poles) are our misery ... but my laddy Abrahmson (or Kosslowsky) two floors upwards is really a nice guy - as long as he doesn't date my daughter.' (like most of the germans/europeans at that time were).

IF Wagner is more of the latter kind, I could see him taking a position of (more or less slowly) trying to let the Poles vanish in time, becomming some kind of 'folklore group' like the Sorbs and Kashubians.
For the (at some point in future) former russian peoples, there is still the possibility to draw on some varagian strings to give them (Ruthenians, Ukrainians) a position to be ... 'incorporated' into the germanic family (to some extent).

At least these would be positions 'fitting' Wagners more 'sensible' approach to things.

Correct on Europe's low-level, garden-variety racism--and it was the same in the US. In image terms, freeing the Baltic States and Finland would gain him points internationally, and as long as his persecution of the Jews wasn't too extreme, his defenders could counter that the same "Don't marry my daughter / Stay in your own neighborhoods" attitude prevailed in the US--and it was institutionally far worse for blacks.

His views on non-Germans other than Jews are essentially similar to those held by the Japanese towards the rest of Asia, or a somewhat more extreme version of the Second Reich's views, that is, they are seen as inferior but also potentially productive. Towards Jews, he is more extreme.

Ain't that the truth...

I absolutely understand. This was not meant as criticism in any way shape or form. I am loving this TL and thoroughly enjoying reading all the different ideas and thoughts all the readers are bringing to the table. Keep it going....

I'm glad you're continuing to enjoy the timeline.

A doubt: What will be the expansion of fascism (especially Falangism) in Latin America? In those OTL years there were several Latin American rulers who carried out pro-fascist policies. Will Francoist Spain use this to be classified by Wagner as the main European political ally of the 3rd Reich in the international sphere, beating Mussolini's Italy and General Petain's France?

Counterquestion : how could Franco use this to improve his position ?
Wagner wouldn't need him to "talk" to the south american caudillios. That's what he has his Abwehr-agents and dipolmats for.

Obtain weapon licenses and surplus weapons from the Germans. German investment in Spanish industry and agriculture.

Wagner will need to tread lightly here. The USA will be very protective of any influence in all the "Americas". Getting rambunctious at this stage would do nothing but get the US angry, and he has other things he needs to take care of first!

@Tonrich you got a point there.

But would it be 'easier' then for Wagner to act through Franco as a middleman ? Won't the US see behind this role-play ?

You know I keep forgetting about the armistice. I keep thinking that Germany needs to find ways to beat the blockade. I think you're right, when the time comes Wagner will deal with them himself. In the meantime Portugal can sort of grease the skids with some of the South American countries.

While Wagner would be willing to deal directly with the relevant parties in Latin America, now that the question has been brought up I can see Spain playing a more prominent role in the promotion of fascism there, than France or Italy. This is indeed a somewhat tricky issue as it is necessary to avoid alarming the US.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Another suggestion: FDR. What's he doing? I mean, yeah he isn't president any more, but I just don't see him sitting quietly and watching as the Axis implacably march to world/Eurasian domination. Also, what's happening in China? Have they made peace? Or are they slugging on?

 

[Pylon_Mountain]

You have a good point about FDR, as long as he had some kind of power or public voice he certainly wouldn't stand for that.

 

[Benjamin the Donkey]

Another suggestion: FDR. What's he doing? I mean, yeah he isn't president any more, but I just don't see him sitting quietly and watching as the Axis implacably march to world/Eurasian domination. Also, what's happening in China? Have they made peace? Or are they slugging on?

I'd imagine Roosevelt being a vocal advocate for Britain, but now they're out of the war. I could also imagine him being involved with fundraising and more direct efforts like Chennault's in aid of China.

But China is a classic stalemate. There's no way the Japanese can occupy the whole country, and the Nationalists don't have the means to drive the Japanese out of their coastal enclaves. (The Japanese military in OTL had begun to realize that this was a quagmire well before Pearl Harbor.) The best the Japanese could really hope for was a treaty that would give them Manchuko and maybe Shanghai and other port cities, which is a bit redundant if they have Hong Kong.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

But China is a classic stalemate. There's no way the Japanese can occupy the whole country, and the Nationalists don't have the means to drive the Japanese out of their coastal enclaves. (The Japanese military in OTL had begun to realize that this was a quagmire well before Pearl Harbor.) The best the Japanese could really hope for was a treaty that would give them Manchuko and maybe Shanghai and other port cities, which is a bit redundant if they have Hong Kong.

Huh, so you can get something through Japanese skulls after all, even without occupying their homeland.

With that said, peace with China, well I think the minimum Japan would ask for peace would be the Chinese recognize Manchukuo and Mengjiang, as well as Japanese annexation of Hong Kong (that's right, no more lease) and Hainan. They could ask for amnesty for Wang Jing-Wei and his collaborators, but more likely they'd be exiled to Japan with Chiang agreeing never to demand their extradition (they could still be useful as governors or something of Hainan or Hong Kong). The eastern Chinese cities can go back to China, Japan already has Hong Kong as you mentioned, no point in getting greedy.

Speaking of Hong Kong, is it just the city, or does it include the Kowloon Peninsula and the rest of the New Territories too?

Finally, plenty in the IJA will be unhappy with minimal gains (though I imagine the IJN will be quite satisfied with gaining Hainan), but if it can be sold as 'freeing up troops for refurbishment and reinforcement for a potential push into the USSR' it's likely they'll swallow the pill and accept what's on the table.

 

[skarosianlifeform]

Well, moving German farmers into Poland (and maybe Ukraine and/or Byelorussia), enslaving the Slavs... can always wait for final victory.

And it SHOULD wait. If Wagner even plans on doing this.