I think that even if a local/regional level,at first, at least, would be interesting to explore what could be the consequences down the line, from avoiding the Prince Eugene of Savoy led Austrian Army siege and sacking of the then Ottoman Sarajevo that burn it down...
What alternate history ideas you wish they were used more often?
- Thread starter Gar48
- Start date
Crazy Boris
Banned
I think the small Caribbean and Pacific countries will be fine (fine as in not nuked, resources will be an issue for a lot of them).
Central America might get by okay, but depending on Mexico’s fate, Guatemala and Belize might be at risk for collateral damage.
I can’t imagine the Caucasus countries being targets for anyone, but beings sandwiched between Russia, Turkey, and Iran would make things hard for them
I don’t have a clue what would happen to most of Africa in this scenario, but I imagine at least a handful of countries will get by unscathed. Rwanda and Burundi could probably get by, at least.
The surprising thing is that the Enlightenment didn't weaken racism despite one of its ideas being that of the universal equality of man. Then again, I suppose philosophy can only do so much against forces like the greed that drives imperialism.
Crazy Boris
Banned
IIRC, the enlightenment really just did the opposite by rejecting the old religious "we are all god's children", in a way it kind of invented racism by transforming old national rivalries into beliefs of inherent superiority. It certainly didn't seem to believe in the universal equality of man when it was ideologically inconvenient to do so, be it by race, class, or whatever other excuse they could come up with. The more I learn about it and what it lead to (looking at you, reign of terror), the more the term "enlightenment" feels like a misnomer.
The Enlightenment, like many intellectual/ideological movements, was composed of a combination of true believers and amoral opportunists. For every Rousseau who had an optimistic, humanist view of reality you have a Robespierre waiting in the wings to inflict as much suffering with it. For every declaration of "all men are created equal" you have a rejoinder of "only applies to white men with landed property".
I dont think its all that surprising, like you said Christianity had "all are God's children and his likeness" and that didnt stop colonialism & slavery so it's secular counterpart "all men are equal in the fraternity of humanity" wouldnt either
Europe failed twice at upholding it's own ideals due to it's ever present greed
Which goes into the thread's topic
I wish the idea of societies living up to their ideals due to the right circunstances, wheter good or bad, was used more often
Like Saint Caligula, it is my favorite timeline on the forum precisely because it shows a world in which Christian Rome is headed towards a path in which in which Europe lives up to both Christianity and the Enlightement's ideals
There are a few other TLs with use a similar premise, like my second favorite A New World with New Ideas where you have a Portuguese Brazil untainted by slavery due to the king against all odds setting his foot down regarding all within the colony as his subjects and the now deleted A More Perfect Union in which the author tried to craft a United States of America that lived up to the so called American Dream as well as the ASB TL of the same name(1 & 2) that tries to accomplish the same thing through a korean-american marine sent back to the American Revolution and similarly so does Emperor of Heaven where a modern chinese from the democratic faction within the Chinese Communist Party tries to save Qing China by using precedents & ideals set by previous dynasties to make it into what it ought to be
I could try to remember more names I found within that niche(in fact I do! Both Common Peace, Common Wealth and the ASB Hatsunia which try to craft a idealised "Japan" to the best of their capabilities are yet more examples of how that can be done well) but overall this type of TL - not SIs, obviously, but "utopian" wanks where a country doesnt just conquer everything but become the best version of itself - is quite rare in comparison to all the other types of work out there mainly because of a mix of pessimism & skepticism at the idea that such a thing is realistic or even possible at all, with the concept being often called boring because "it lacks tension" if it is not outright accused of whitewashing due to what said countries did in our own timeline, often favouring more dystopian and "morally gray" works instead for fitting more with that outlook in life, which seeing how OTL went I cant really blamed it at all
Europe failed twice at upholding it's own ideals due to it's ever present greed
Which goes into the thread's topic
I wish the idea of societies living up to their ideals due to the right circunstances, wheter good or bad, was used more often
Like Saint Caligula, it is my favorite timeline on the forum precisely because it shows a world in which Christian Rome is headed towards a path in which in which Europe lives up to both Christianity and the Enlightement's ideals
There are a few other TLs with use a similar premise, like my second favorite A New World with New Ideas where you have a Portuguese Brazil untainted by slavery due to the king against all odds setting his foot down regarding all within the colony as his subjects and the now deleted A More Perfect Union in which the author tried to craft a United States of America that lived up to the so called American Dream as well as the ASB TL of the same name(1 & 2) that tries to accomplish the same thing through a korean-american marine sent back to the American Revolution and similarly so does Emperor of Heaven where a modern chinese from the democratic faction within the Chinese Communist Party tries to save Qing China by using precedents & ideals set by previous dynasties to make it into what it ought to be
I could try to remember more names I found within that niche(in fact I do! Both Common Peace, Common Wealth and the ASB Hatsunia which try to craft a idealised "Japan" to the best of their capabilities are yet more examples of how that can be done well) but overall this type of TL - not SIs, obviously, but "utopian" wanks where a country doesnt just conquer everything but become the best version of itself - is quite rare in comparison to all the other types of work out there mainly because of a mix of pessimism & skepticism at the idea that such a thing is realistic or even possible at all, with the concept being often called boring because "it lacks tension" if it is not outright accused of whitewashing due to what said countries did in our own timeline, often favouring more dystopian and "morally gray" works instead for fitting more with that outlook in life, which seeing how OTL went I cant really blamed it at all
That unique it's a unique scenario but it's one problem with it.
Many of the stereotypes of the Jews are already established by then, greedy, self-centered and controlling everything etc.
But I heard that during the Jack the ripper's murders they actually trying to stop Antisemitism accusation to stop targeting Jewish communities in London. So maybe those type behavior we're a lot more prevalent in 19th century Europe but likely in Western Europe only
what if the persians of anshan and maybe a few other persian/median kingdoms joined the fray in the sargonid civil war, a little otl summary:
after ulia, where the elamite king teumman was killed, assurbinappel appointed a new king, and shattered the kingdom, but the two newly appointed kings, an eunuch and a cousin of teumman fought each other for the throne, but in assyria assurbinappel fought against his brother, shamas-shuma-ulkin the king of babylon, because he limited his brothers might to the point of an almost literal war declaration.all the elamite kings decided to support shamas-shuma-ulkin, but assurbinappel decided to directly attack elam and limit it’s power permanent and then attacked babylon.
after ulia, where the elamite king teumman was killed, assurbinappel appointed a new king, and shattered the kingdom, but the two newly appointed kings, an eunuch and a cousin of teumman fought each other for the throne, but in assyria assurbinappel fought against his brother, shamas-shuma-ulkin the king of babylon, because he limited his brothers might to the point of an almost literal war declaration.all the elamite kings decided to support shamas-shuma-ulkin, but assurbinappel decided to directly attack elam and limit it’s power permanent and then attacked babylon.
Beatriz
Gone Fishin'
The World Republic
Basically a TL where a more extensive ideological development of an anti/para-nationalistRadical ideology in the Late 19th century combined with faster technological development results in a *WW1 where radical ideologies spread to more countries with OTL capitalist democracy in the back seat/less relevant, and a *WW2 where both sides have and use WMDs, and the Revolutionary war effort becomes coordinated through a Comintern equivalent, and the various revolutionary *nations[1] merge into a superstate in the face of the Reactionary menace, and win, annexing much of the Reactionary world as new divisions of the World Republic[2], and creating Associates, especially out of former colonies, nations ideologixally similar but unwilling to join etc.
The World Association[3], with the World Republic at its head and Associates and defacto allies dominates the planet, and the Republic has undergone several internal border revisions [0] and the creation of Autonomies in areas considered culturally distinct and difficult to integrate such as Mexico, Iran and Vietnam.
[0] Inspired by both those undertaken by India after independence along the basis of language, and early Soviet proposals for economically derived SSRs
[1] The Revolution seeks to end nationalism by strengthening entities above (what later became the internal trade, cultural organs of the Republic), alongside (cross-border regions with their own votes and representatives) and below (secret societies [a] that are strongly encouraged, the Autonomies, several of which have their own embassies and representatives in the World Assembly, the Congress of Faith where representatives of each religion can be elected by congregants) and so on, helped by Transference Systems to encourage a complete self-denationalization through dissociating the State with the Nation, and by encouraged cultural transfusion
[2] With no equivalent to the US putting pressure, they can just annex reactionary states wholesale
[a] Analogous to the Freemasons but also the West African Leopard Cult and so on, include their own paramilitaries and mutual aid groups, tolerated as a source of internal dissent from below
[/b] For example the halfway house of non-territorial nationalism where the Diaspora can vote for a non-exclusive leader and government issuing binding laws governing the Diaspora
[3] More of planetary EU+NATO if clearly dominated by the Big Cheese than a Warsaw Pact or our UN
Basically a TL where a more extensive ideological development of an anti/para-nationalistRadical ideology in the Late 19th century combined with faster technological development results in a *WW1 where radical ideologies spread to more countries with OTL capitalist democracy in the back seat/less relevant, and a *WW2 where both sides have and use WMDs, and the Revolutionary war effort becomes coordinated through a Comintern equivalent, and the various revolutionary *nations[1] merge into a superstate in the face of the Reactionary menace, and win, annexing much of the Reactionary world as new divisions of the World Republic[2], and creating Associates, especially out of former colonies, nations ideologixally similar but unwilling to join etc.
The World Association[3], with the World Republic at its head and Associates and defacto allies dominates the planet, and the Republic has undergone several internal border revisions [0] and the creation of Autonomies in areas considered culturally distinct and difficult to integrate such as Mexico, Iran and Vietnam.
[0] Inspired by both those undertaken by India after independence along the basis of language, and early Soviet proposals for economically derived SSRs
[1] The Revolution seeks to end nationalism by strengthening entities above (what later became the internal trade, cultural organs of the Republic), alongside (cross-border regions with their own votes and representatives) and below (secret societies [a] that are strongly encouraged, the Autonomies, several of which have their own embassies and representatives in the World Assembly, the Congress of Faith where representatives of each religion can be elected by congregants) and so on, helped by Transference Systems to encourage a complete self-denationalization through dissociating the State with the Nation, and by encouraged cultural transfusion
[2] With no equivalent to the US putting pressure, they can just annex reactionary states wholesale
[a] Analogous to the Freemasons but also the West African Leopard Cult and so on, include their own paramilitaries and mutual aid groups, tolerated as a source of internal dissent from below
[/b] For example the halfway house of non-territorial nationalism where the Diaspora can vote for a non-exclusive leader and government issuing binding laws governing the Diaspora
[3] More of planetary EU+NATO if clearly dominated by the Big Cheese than a Warsaw Pact or our UN
Last edited:
There's a Sufi sect in Morocco called the Buffi who venerate a jinn king called Shamhurish or Sidi Chamharouch as a saint. They also openly use jinn and their spiritual leaders claim to have a repertoire or gallery of jinn at their beck-and-call. It is often claimed that this is a sort of survival of polytheism or pagan ideas in Islam (though this is often a controversial claim).
One cool alternate history idea would be to have more jinn saints and for jinn magic to be more accepted in Islam. There are some scholars who have argued that using jinn or magic is prohibited if it done to commit sin while permissible if it is done to do good. That might be a very interesting TL to see. Maybe Zoroastrian yazatas get interpreted as different real world saints or interpreted as jinns that converted into Islam.
One cool alternate history idea would be to have more jinn saints and for jinn magic to be more accepted in Islam. There are some scholars who have argued that using jinn or magic is prohibited if it done to commit sin while permissible if it is done to do good. That might be a very interesting TL to see. Maybe Zoroastrian yazatas get interpreted as different real world saints or interpreted as jinns that converted into Islam.
I have yet to see a TL where Switzerland actually does something/happens to them, especially if it was during a time like the reformation or Napoleonic wars where there was a real risk of fragmentation.
In my TL about French Brazil, I'm actually planning to add a chapter about the breaking down of order due to religious tensions that eventually lead France and Savoy and Spanish Milan to intervene and trying to "protect" the swiss from both internal and external threats, essentially carve up the country between them by accident.
But yeah, any TLs that deal with a Balkanized Switzerland or at least one where the country is more present in Europe instead of just being a dresser would be super interesting.
In my TL about French Brazil, I'm actually planning to add a chapter about the breaking down of order due to religious tensions that eventually lead France and Savoy and Spanish Milan to intervene and trying to "protect" the swiss from both internal and external threats, essentially carve up the country between them by accident.
But yeah, any TLs that deal with a Balkanized Switzerland or at least one where the country is more present in Europe instead of just being a dresser would be super interesting.
Crazy Boris
Banned
The Sonderbund war could be a potential later POD for a radically different Switzerland.
It would be interesting to think what would happen if the viceroyalty of the Rio de la Plata is not created in 1776. How would it affect the development of the region if Spain decides not to screw up the organisation of this territory and what would happen if this Mega-Peru remains loyal after the Napoleonic chaos?
Last edited:
or better Salazar never came from power and Estadio Novo was never founded
Beatriz
Gone Fishin'
More creole or hybridized cultures emerging out of multiethnic or multiracial interactions.
IRL examples include the culture of the Coloured peoples of Southern Africa, the Anglo-Caribbean culture combining English, Scottish, African and Indian influences, and the cultures of Brazil and Latin America
IRL examples include the culture of the Coloured peoples of Southern Africa, the Anglo-Caribbean culture combining English, Scottish, African and Indian influences, and the cultures of Brazil and Latin America