What if Bouvines had been a french defeat?

[Iñaki]

the battle of Bouvines in 1214 was in OTL a defeat for John Lackland and his ally Oton IV emperor of the Holy Roman Empire.

The principal consecuences were three: 1. The failure of the campaign of John, king of England, to reconquest his possesions in France and the consolidation of France under Philip Augustus as an european potence.
2. The defeat of Oton IV permitted the strengthening of Federic Hohenstaufen, king of Sicily and the candidate of the Pope and the german nobles aligned with the House of Suabia, ultimately causing the defeat of Oton IV that could maintain his dominions of Brunswick but little more.
3. The defeat of John meant a great loss of prestige, apart the need of raise the taxes and collect money and men among the english nobles meant that with the defeat of Bouvines John found himselp in a very dangerous and unpopular position respect to these which caused the defeat of John in the struggle against the nobles and the proclamation of the Magna Carta in 1215.

Without doubt Bouvines was a key battle in the development of the Medieval Europe.

Which would be the consecuences of a defeat of Philip Augustus in Bouvines and how the development of the Europe in XIII century and later centuries had been with Bouvines being a victory for John and Oton?

 

[Thande]

Well, as you say, the most important consequence from an English POV is no Magna Carta. Less dramatically, John having more success in France will probably lead to less of an erosion of the Norman identity of the English ruling class than OTL: the permanent loss of Normandy was more or less the catalyst for this.

 

[fhaessig]

ACtually, there were no English troops at Bouvines.

John I of England was defeated by the Prince Louis, with the regular army of France ( that is the feudal levies; 'le Ban de France' ) at La-Roche-aux Moines, about a week before Bouvines.

During that time, King Phillipe II marched against a coalition of the Holy Roman Emperor, the Count of Flanders and the Count of Boulogne. His forces were his old companions and the town militias. On the field of Bouvines, the french prevailed.

So, if Phillipe is slain at Bouvine ( he nearly was a couple times ) and his death triggers a flight of the town militias, the coalition will still have to deal with the regular french forces, fresh from their victory over the english and led by a prince eager to avenge his father.

 

[Iñaki]

Yes, John Lackland was too much occupied with the campaign in the south (although there was an english contingent in the battle of Bouvines under the command of the count of Salisbury), I was thinking that an interesting way to get a victory in Bouvines could be that not exists the battle of Roche-Aux-Moines, in OTL John feared of letting his rearguard open to possible attacks from the back by the part of the french prince Louis try to conquet the fortress of Roche-Aux-Moines but when he began his siege appeared a french army leaded by Louis, John that was not precissely the most valiant or the less cautious man of the world decides to retreat without presenting combat abandoning all the siege weapons on the field.

But what if John is alerted by spies or scouts of the arrival of this army?, he decides retreat but with the siege weapons, although he has not get a victory, he has an army intact in the south, this trigerrs a minor efect but sufficient, Philip is more indecisive if take the initiative in the north, confronted to a situation of stalemate in the south and feared with letting alone Louis against John -and also John could menace Paris easier than Oton- he expects some time more than in OTL, this permits Oton to receive more reinforcements from Germany, Philip once that see that John seems more preocupied in not loss men than in to risk in a battle against Louis march finally against Otton before than the reinforcements could arrive to the Holy Roman Emperor, but alas Otton has received yet some reinforcements, when Philip repeats the same manouver to elude a battle with Otton (his forces in OTL were superior to Philip, in TTL even more), the battle is an exact repetition of OTL Bouvines more or less except than when the german forces try to slain Philip they are more, the sufficient to pass over the knights that try to defend the king, killing Wallon de Montigny Carotte that try to defend the king and ultimately this, with the king and an important part of the principal knights killed and the germans in numerical superiority, the french army is in disarray, it is no necessary to make a brief of the rest of the battle, if one could say battle to an almost bloody mess where the french takes a very heavy toll although part of the french army could at the end retreats in good order under the command of the duke of Burgundy Eudes III.

Is these chain of events plaussible? and if it is plaussible how Louis could conduct the war after this disaster and having an english army intact in the south?

Could Frederick Hohenstaufen provides some help in time to Louis? and Simon of Montfort could be call from Provence by Louis to provide help -Simon had a lot of gains of revenge against John Lackland and this a desperate situation for France-? If this is the case is there some probabilities that the war could be extendended even to Occitania with Raymond of Toulouse and the regent Sancho of Aragon could try to retake the aragonese campaigns against Simon of Montfort?

 

[Douglas]

No coastal defense battleship named that in the late 19th century, for sure.

 

[Hecatee]

A larger consequence of a defeat of Philip August ( or even his death ) would be a much slower centralization process of France and a longer feodal period with a weaker central state. This in itself would have huge consequences on all the French and European history.

 

[Atreus]

Just a note, but John wasn't present at the battle.

Probably, England holds Western France, Germany is more centralized, and France balkanizes siminar to Germany in OTL.