What If: Thomas Boleyn, Earl of Ormond in 1515

[Cate13]

I’ve been doing some research and it looks like Thomas Boleyn was considered his grandfather’s legal heir. The Archbishop of Dublin had said Thomas Boleyn should inherit the earldom, and so had the Dublin law courts. The two daughters of Thomas Butler (Thomas Boleyn’s mother Margaret and her sister Anne) seemed to be in agreement as Anne Butler had appointed Thomas’s brother to manage her Irish estates.

Then, the distant cousin Piers Butler had married his six daughters to military families along the Earldom border. And that’s what he used to back his claim. It was basically might v right. (Most of this info comes from this lovely podcast)


But what if all of Piers Butler’s military alliances fall apart? Maybe a few daughters die without issue and he quarrels with a couple son-in-laws. Whatever the cause, when Thomas Butler dies in 1515 there is no impediment to Thomas Boelyn inheriting the earldom.

What happens next? Mary and Anne are already in France and George Boleyn is a page boy in the English Court.

My initial thought was a butterfly net until 1522 so that Anne could meet and then marry Henry Percy. But that's after Mary's marriage and as daughter of an Earl she'd probably get a better marriage then William Carey. Also, Anne wouldn't be called back to England to marry James Butler.

So what do ya'll think will happen?

@FalconHonour @Tudorfan @isabella @RedKing @ordinarylittleme @HortenseMancini @BoleynBuff

 

[ordinarylittleme]

So what do ya'll think will happen?

@FalconHonour @Tudorfan @isabella @RedKing @ordinarylittleme @HortenseMancini @BoleynBuff

Anne will not be made Marquess of Pembroke, for one

 

[Tudorfan]

I leave you alone for five minutes and you start thinking?
Well, as the daughter of an Earl, there's no impediment to Anne marrying Percy... except for the fact that there's now no reason to recall her from France to England.

 

[isabella]

I’ve been doing some research and it looks like Thomas Boleyn was considered his grandfather’s legal heir. The Archbishop of Dublin had said Thomas Boleyn should inherit the earldom, and so had the Dublin law courts. The two daughters of Thomas Butler (Thomas Boleyn’s mother Margaret and her sister Anne) seemed to be in agreement as Anne Butler had appointed Thomas’s brother to manage her Irish estates.

Then, the distant cousin Piers Butler had married his six daughters to military families along the Earldom border. And that’s what he used to back his claim. It was basically might v right. (Most of this info comes from this lovely podcast)


But what if all of Piers Butler’s military alliances fall apart? Maybe a few daughters die without issue and he quarrels with a couple son-in-laws. Whatever the cause, when Thomas Butler dies in 1515 there is no impediment to Thomas Boelyn inheriting the earldom.

What happens next? Mary and Anne are already in France and George Boleyn is a page boy in the English Court.

My initial thought was a butterfly net until 1522 so that Anne could meet and then marry Henry Percy. But that's after Mary's marriage and as daughter of an Earl she'd probably get a better marriage then William Carey. Also, Anne wouldn't be called back to England to marry James Butler.

So what do ya'll think will happen?

@FalconHonour @Tudorfan @isabella @RedKing @ordinarylittleme @HortenseMancini @BoleynBuff

Really interesting. Thomas Boleyn being elevated to the peerage as Earl at this point and not having to fight for his rights would be good, specially as he was one of the best diplomats at Henry’s service. Mary and Anne as daughters of an Earl will surely be seen as better marriage partner, specially as their father here inherited his peerage, so Mary will likely marry into the peerage. Lady Anne could still be recalled from the French court for any reason at some point and meet and fall in love with Henry Percy. Woolsey and Northumberland here would have much less reasons for denying the match than OTL so Anne could get the match who she wanted

 

[RedKing]

If Thomas inherits Ormond, he could decide to marry one or more of his children to an Irish noble to make allies there to help secure his lands and fend of raids from the Gaelic Irish. Maybe Anne winds up the Countess of Kildare or George marries a Fitzgerald. Either way, I think Tom getting the Earldom means Anne will be married before Henry sets his eyes on her, meaning that he’ll either break with Rome over another mistress or will wait till Katherine dies in around 1536, before remarrying to a Habsburg/French Proxy.

 

[HortenseMancini]

Most of this info comes from this lovely podcast

Uggh another podcast that I need to list to!? Are you kidding me Cate??

he’ll either break with Rome over another mistress or will wait till Katherine dies in around 1536, before remarrying to a Habsburg/French Proxy

well with a pod in 1515 there are any number of butterflies that could change how things go if/when henry decides to pursue an annulment

I think Tom getting the Earldom means Anne will be married before Henry sets his eyes on her

Oh yeah at the very least she could definitely marry henry percy here (aiui his father ostensibly objected to anne's lower status as the daughter of a mere knight and diplomat but the real reason was that wolsey wanted anne to marry her butler cousin instead...here neither of those issues will be a factor so if anne and percy still fall for each other then it's full steam ahead)

 

[Cate13]

Mary will likely marry into the peerage

Yeah, that’s been my conclusion as well. So I’ve been trying to figure out a list of potential grooms for Mary. Any suggestions welcome

If Thomas inherits Ormond, he could decide to marry one or more of his children to an Irish noble to make allies there to help secure his lands and fend of raids from the Gaelic Irish.

I’m currently leaning towards Mary and Anne marrying English nobles and George marrying an Anglo-Irish bride.

But Tom might also want George to have a bride that gives him political ties to influential family at court so that George’s career could have the best starting point since George is Thomas’s heir. That leaves Anne or Mary with an Irish groom.

Maybe a plot point could still be Anne trying to ditch her Irish groom for Henry Percy.

Anne will be married before Henry sets his eyes on her, meaning that he’ll either break with Rome over another mistress or will wait till Katherine dies in around 1536, before remarrying to a Habsburg/French Proxy.

Yeah, the butterflies on the Tudors are pretty much infinite.

 

[FalconHonour]

Yeah, that’s been my conclusion as well. So I’ve been trying to figure out a list of potential grooms for Mary. Any suggestions welcome


I’m currently leaning towards Mary and Anne marrying English nobles and George marrying an Anglo-Irish bride.

But Tom might also want George to have a bride that gives him political ties to influential family at court so that George’s career could have the best starting point since George is Thomas’s heir. That leaves Anne or Mary with an Irish groom.

Maybe a plot point could still be Anne trying to ditch her Irish groom for Henry Percy.

Yeah, the butterflies on the Tudors are pretty much infinite.

I'm thinking that George could end up with a Fitzgerald or a Butler cousin here. Yes, he's Thomas's heir, but with Thomas' power base much more Irish here than otl, I suspect he'll want to shore his son's position up in Ireland rather than at Court.

I'm always keen on Anne/Henry Percy, so that just leaves Mary to find a groom for. For the irony, you could have her marry Henry Parker, heir to the Morley Barony, Jane Parker's older brother. But I'm thinking maybe Charles Somerset, 1st Earl of Worcester. Charles was Henry's Lord Chamberlain and responsible for the Field of the Cloth of Gold and its arrangements, AFAIK, so if Thomas is still an accomplished diplomat TTL, then the two of them will probably cross paths more than once. Charles was widowed in 1513, I could see Thomas thinking it makes sense to marry his older daughter off to him as a second wife.

 

[King of Danes]

I'm always keen on Anne/Henry Percy, so that just leaves Mary to find a groom for. For the irony, you could have her marry Henry Parker, heir to the Morley Barony, Jane Parker's older brother. But I'm thinking maybe Charles Somerset, 1st Earl of Worcester. Charles was Henry's Lord Chamberlain and responsible for the Field of the Cloth of Gold and its arrangements, AFAIK, so if Thomas is still an accomplished diplomat TTL, then the two of them will probably cross paths more than once. Charles was widowed in 1513, I could see Thomas thinking it makes sense to marry his older daughter off to him as a second wife.

What about Francis Talbot maybe? Since Mary Talbot isn't going to end up with her Percy betrothed, maybe a match between Francis and Mary B could work? That way the sisters serve as a connection between the Talbots and the Percys?

 

[FalconHonour]

What about Francis Talbot maybe? Since Mary Talbot isn't going to end up with her Percy betrothed, maybe a match between Francis and Mary B could work? That way the sisters serve as a connection between the Talbots and the Percys?

That could also work, yes.

 

[Cate13]

I'm thinking that George could end up with a Fitzgerald or a Butler cousin here. Yes, he's Thomas's heir, but with Thomas' power base much more Irish here than otl, I suspect he'll want to shore his son's position up in Ireland rather than at Court.

Alice FitzGerald is born in about 1508. She’s the daughter of Gerard FitzGerald, 9th Earl of Kildare. Gerard’s sister married Piers Butler, so the marriage could help the FiztGerald’s bridge the two sides of the Butler/Boleyn family.

Also, Alice is the second cousin of Henry VII, so there’s even a royal connection, even if it’s distant.

 

[FalconHonour]

Alice FitzGerald is born in about 1508. She’s the daughter of Gerard FitzGerald, 9th Earl of Kildare. Gerard’s sister married Piers Butler, so the marriage could help the FiztGerald’s bridge the two sides of the Butler/Boleyn family.

Also, Alice is the second cousin of Henry VII, so there’s even a royal connection, even if it’s distant.

She sounds good to me!

 

[jennynin]

Ooh I love this. I'm a direct descendant of Piers Butler (12th Great Grandfather) which rather awesomely means I'm related to the Boleyns. I'm also Irish so here is my concept:

George will possibly be betrothed to Siobhan nic Gearailt/ Lady Joan Fitzgerald, OTL Countess of Ormond and Desmond, as she comes from the powerful Irish noble Fitzgerald family, and was heir general to her father's earldom. She is ten years younger than George, being born in 1514, and OTL lives to 1565.

For Mary, if her father really wanted to make Irish connections, could be married to James fitz John FitzGerald, OTL, 13th Earl of Desmond, who is around a year younger than her. James was at one point the Deputy to Ireland so I see Mary being a very powerful woman in the Irish peerage.

As for Anne, I could see her still marrying Henry Percy. Or, if Tommy Boleyn really wants to plays his Irish cards, Francis Talbot, 5th Earl of Shrewsbury, 5th Earl of Waterford, 11th Baron Talbot. Not only is Francis both an Irish AND English Earl, he is also distantly a Plantagenet, being the great grandson of Richard "Kingmaker" Neville. Francis is also Chamberlain of the Exchequer and later on a Knight of the Garter.

He is about 7 or so years older than her. He doesn't marry OTL until 1523, and in this time line, if Anne stays in Ireland instead of going to the Low Countries, she may marry him in her late teens. Francis died OTL in 1560.

However, Francis was a Catholic and under Edward VI he became a Reformer with known Catholic sympathies. I could see a few outcomes:

• Anne never develops her reformatist views, and the Church of England is put on pause.
• Francis gets swayed by Anne's thinking and becomes a genuine Reformer himself, which leads to a bigger spread of Protestant thinking in Ireland.
• Anne and Francis choose to agree to disagree.

Either way, Anne is one of the most powerful woman in Ireland. Francis OTL had four children, with one being named Anne.

So, here's a mini family tree, with copius amounts of Irish names:

1. George "Seoirse" Boleyn, Earl of Wiltshire, 2nd Earl of Ormond, 2nd Viscount Rochford m. Lady Joan "Siobhán" Fitzgerald in 1532.
   1. Thomas "Tomás" Boleyn (1532-)
   2. Elizabeth "Sibéal" Boleyn (1534 -)
   3. Anne "Áine" Boleyn (1537-)
2. Mary Boleyn m. James fitz John FitzGerald, 13th Earl of Desmond in 1519.
   1. Gerald "Gearailt" Fitzgerald (1520-)
   2. John "Seán" Fitzgerald (1522-)
   3. Eleanor "Eilionora" Fitzgerald (1525-)
   4. Margaret "Maireád" Fitzgerald (1528 -)
   5. James "Seamus" Fitzgerald (1531-)
   6. Joan "Siobhán" Fitzgerald (1533-)
3. Anne Boleyn m. Francis Talbot, 5th Earl of Shrewsbury, 5th Earl of Waterford, 11th Baron Talbot in 1525.
   1. Henry "Anraí" Talbot (1525-)
   2. George "Seoirse" Talbot (1527-)
   3. Elizabeth "Eilis" Talbot (1530-)
   4. Mary "Muire" Talbot (1533-)

 

[FalconHonour]

Ooh I love this. I'm a direct descendant of Piers Butler (12th Great Grandfather) which rather awesomely means I'm related to the Boleyns. I'm also Irish so here is my concept:

George will possibly be betrothed to Siobhan nic Gearailt/ Lady Joan Fitzgerald, OTL Countess of Ormond and Desmond, as she comes from the powerful Irish noble Fitzgerald family, and was heir general to her father's earldom. She is ten years younger than George, being born in 1514, and OTL lives to 1565.

For Mary, if her father really wanted to make Irish connections, could be married to James fitz John FitzGerald, OTL, 13th Earl of Desmond, who is around a year younger than her. James was at one point the Deputy to Ireland so I see Mary being a very powerful woman in the Irish peerage.

As for Anne, I could see her still marrying Henry Percy. Or, if Tommy Boleyn really wants to plays his Irish cards, Francis Talbot, 5th Earl of Shrewsbury, 5th Earl of Waterford, 11th Baron Talbot. Not only is Francis both an Irish AND English Earl, he is also distantly a Plantagenet, being the great grandson of Richard "Kingmaker" Neville. Francis is also Chamberlain of the Exchequer and later on a Knight of the Garter.

He is about 7 or so years older than her. He doesn't marry OTL until 1523, and in this time line, if Anne stays in Ireland instead of going to the Low Countries, she may marry him in her late teens. Francis died OTL in 1560.

However, Francis was a Catholic and under Edward VI he became a Reformer with known Catholic sympathies. I could see a few outcomes:

• Anne never develops her reformatist views, and the Church of England is put on pause.
• Francis gets swayed by Anne's thinking and becomes a genuine Reformer himself, which leads to a bigger spread of Protestant thinking in Ireland.
• Anne and Francis choose to agree to disagree.

Either way, Anne is one of the most powerful woman in Ireland. Francis OTL had four children, with one being named Anne.

So, here's a mini family tree, with copius amounts of Irish names:

1. George "Seoirse" Boleyn, Earl of Wiltshire, 2nd Earl of Ormond, 2nd Viscount Rochford m. Lady Joan "Siobhán" Fitzgerald in 1532.
   1. Thomas "Tomás" Boleyn (1532-)
   2. Elizabeth "Sibéal" Boleyn (1534 -)
   3. Anne "Áine" Boleyn (1537-)
2. Mary Boleyn m. James fitz John FitzGerald, 13th Earl of Desmond in 1519.
   1. Gerald "Gearailt" Fitzgerald (1520-)
   2. John "Seán" Fitzgerald (1522-)
   3. Eleanor "Eilionora" Fitzgerald (1525-)
   4. Margaret "Maireád" Fitzgerald (1528 -)
   5. James "Seamus" Fitzgerald (1531-)
   6. Joan "Siobhán" Fitzgerald (1533-)
3. Anne Boleyn m. Francis Talbot, 5th Earl of Shrewsbury, 5th Earl of Waterford, 11th Baron Talbot in 1525.
   1. Henry "Anraí" Talbot (1525-)
   2. George "Seoirse" Talbot (1527-)
   3. Elizabeth "Eilis" Talbot (1530-)
   4. Mary "Muire" Talbot (1533-)

I like this very much, and I think Francis Talbot is an excellent match for one of the Boleyn girls, but given the age gap and his strong Catholic faith against Anne's Reformist tendencies, I'd put him with Mary.

Francis with Mary, Joan or Alice Fitzgerald with George and then an English match for Anne. Either Henry Percy as discussed, or, if we take 1507 as Anne's birth year, perhaps Edward Stanley, 3rd Earl of Derby. He'd only be a couple of years younger than her, and, if the rest of the family is anything to go by, the Stanley pragmatism and the Boleyn ambition could be a match made in heaven.

 

[FalconHonour]

As above, here is my suggestion for a family tree.

Mary Boleyn (b.1500) m. Francis Talbot, 5th Earl of Shrewsbury (b.1500)

• George (b.1521)
• Anne (b.1524)
• Henry (b.1526)
• Elizabeth (b.1529)
• Miscarriage (1532)

George Boleyn (b.1504) m. Alice Fitzgerald (b.1508)

• Thomas (b.1527)
• Elizabeth (b.1529)
• Margaret (1532)
• Henry (1534-1538)
• Anne (b.1535)
• Gerald (b.1538)

Anne (b.1507) m. Edward Stanley, 3rd Earl of Derby (b.1509)

• George (b. 1526)
• Miscarriage (1528)
• Elizabeth (b.1529)
• William (b.1531)
• Margaret (1533-34)
• Renee (b. 1535)
• Edward (b.1537)
• Philippa (1539-1541)

 

[Cate13]

George will possibly be betrothed to Siobhan nic Gearailt/ Lady Joan Fitzgerald, OTL Countess of Ormond and Desmond, as she comes from the powerful Irish noble Fitzgerald family, and was heir general to her father's earldom. She is ten years younger than George, being born in 1514, and OTL lives to 1565.

Oooh, I really like Joan as George's bride.

As above, here is my suggestion for a family tree.

Nice!

 

[Cate13]

The map is a little early, but I think it's probably mostly accurate. If the Boleyn's get both the Earldom of Ormond and the Earldom of Desmond they'll have a lot of territory.

 

[Cate13]

Okay, So I am putting my own Boleyn tree together and I'm having trouble with Anne's husband. I'm currently leaning towards Charles Brandon. AnnexCharles is my favorite crack pairing, but only once she's a bit older so the age difference isn't quote so 😬. But without Henry Percy and James Butler drama keeping Anne unmarried till she's older, I'm not as enthused about the pairing if they're marrying when Anne's younger. I'm also considering Henry Percy but then he dies and Anne can remarry Charles. Or instead somebody that I haven't seen paired with Anne before like Henry Courtney. Thoughts?

 

[Stahlo]

WhaOkay, So I am putting my own Boleyn tree together and I'm having trouble with Anne's husband. I'm currently leaning towards Charles Brandon. AnnexCharles is my favorite crack pairing, but only once she's a bit older so the age difference isn't quote so 😬. But without Henry Percy and James Butler drama keeping Anne unmarried till she's older, I'm not as enthused about the pairing if they're marrying when Anne's younger. I'm also considering Henry Percy but then he dies and Anne can remarry Charles. Or instead somebody that I haven't seen paired with Anne before like Henry Courtney. Thoughts?

Henry Percy died in 1537 OTL, which would make Anne a widow at thirty if you're going with the 1507 birth year. That should make her old enough for the age gap to not be quite so bad. What's going to happen with Katherine Willoughby if you go with CharlesxAnne?

 

[BoleynBuff]

Henry Percy died in 1537 OTL, which would make Anne a widow at thirty if you're going with the 1507 birth year. That should make her old enough for the age gap to not be quite so bad. What's going to happen with Katherine Willoughby if you go with CharlesxAnne?

I believe Percy was rather sickly. He could easily die a few years earlier, because Anne's unlikely to remarry if she has children with Percy and if she's childless at thirty, her marriage prospects aren't great.