What would happen to the monarchy if Britain turned fascist in the early 30s?

Assuming this is a CP victory since it would obviously be ASB to do it along the likes of OTL.

Does Edward and Wallace charm Oswald Mosely and his cronies or are they ousted like the German monarchy IOTL.
 
I don't think the fascists would depose the monarchy. Most probably it ends up like in Italy, with the King paying lip-service to the fascist government (if the king is Edward he may be really supportive though).
 

Garrison

Donor
Assuming this is a CP victory since it would obviously be ASB to do it along the likes of OTL.

Does Edward and Wallace charm Oswald Mosely and his cronies or are they ousted like the German monarchy IOTL.

Thing is you are proposing a massive change in events but still assuming players like Moseley end up in the same place regardless, not to mention I'm not seeing defeat in WWI sending the UK careering off into Fascism, without a lot more detail.

Regardless, no the monarchy isn't going anywhere. Any fascist party in Britain would have to draw support from the establishment to have any chance of governing so the monarchy will simply carry on in an essentially ceremonial role, much as it does today.
 

marathag

Banned
I don't think the fascists would depose the monarchy. Most probably it ends up like in Italy, with the King paying lip-service to the fascist government (if the king is Edward he may be really supportive though).
King had the juice to get The Moose kicked out of his position, and some of those powers he had transferred to him.
 
Fascists are big on nationalism, patriotism and national symbols. They'd likely keep the monarchy.

Whether the current occupant wants to be part of that, though...
 
Thing is you are proposing a massive change in events but still assuming players like Moseley end up in the same place regardless, not to mention I'm not seeing defeat in WWI sending the UK careering off into Fascism, without a lot more detail.

I believe a widespread criticism of Mosley, voiced by critics as varied as Hitler and Orwell, was that his obsession with militaristic aesthetics was alien to the British character. I wonder how this would would manifest itself in an ATL of a CP victory.
 

Deleted member 94680

Fascists are big on nationalism, patriotism and national symbols. They'd likely keep the monarchy.

Hitler says no, Mussolini says yes.

Come to think of it, fascists are a mixed bunch when it comes to monarchy. Maybe it has more to do with the way the particular monarchy is viewed in each country?
 
Hitler says no, Mussolini says yes.

Come to think of it, fascists are a mixed bunch when it comes to monarchy. Maybe it has more to do with the way the particular monarchy is viewed in each country?

But actually, a lot of the regimes that Hitler prefered to ally with had more in common with local conservative traditions than they did with fascism as practiced in Germany. Vichy and Croatia, for example.

Mind you, I did read somewhere that he wanted to shoot all the royal families in Scandinavia.
 
It would be interesting to see the monarchical Great Britain end up like the kingdom of Italy after a World War II analogue. The monarchy was discredited, giving way to a republican regime in London.
 

Deleted member 140587

I'd actually say it depends on who is King at the time:
- I could see Edward VIII working well with Mosley and I'd say a good analogue to their relationship might be the relationship between Mussolini and Victor Emmanuele
- If the King is George V or George VI, I could see either of them pushing back against the fascist movement a little bit (depends on public support) due to the fact that they were both fairly un-amenable to fascist ideology (George V's favourite PM was Ramsay MacDonald after all)

However, I doubt Britain would turn fascist simply because both the political establishment and most ordinary people were vehemently opposed to the dogma of fascism. The reason for this being that Anglo-Saxon countries tend to have deeply engrained democratic values (Magna Carta, the Declaration of Independence, etc.) that were simply not present in Germany or Italy, where there was a simply a lack of the democratic ethos that had pervaded in Anglo-American society for the past century or so. If Oswald Mosley had not turned to Italian-style fascism and had not endorsed anti-Semitic values then it's completely plausible his New Party could have been striding into 10 Downing Street by the end of the decade and Britain would've followed an fervently isolationist foreign policy with strong interventionist economic policies. However, he didn't (thank God).
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Assuming this is a CP victory since it would obviously be ASB to do it along the likes of OTL.

Does Edward and Wallace charm Oswald Mosely and his cronies or are they ousted like the German monarchy IOTL.

A world where the Central Powers win would be a world quite different from our own and one likely difference is that Mosley will never become a Fascist and indeed the word Fascism might never become known at all. (Mussolini's coming to power was after all the far-from-inevitable result of certain specific circumstances--as for that matter was Mosley's path from the Conservatives to Labour to the New Party to Fascism.)

But let's assume that something like Fascism develops in Britain whatever its name and whoever its leaders and becomes powerful. (Just why it would become so is not clear--the fact that the UK lost would hardly be sufficient. Fascism or at least nationalist authoritarian groups with some resemblance to it flourished in some countries that had been among the winners of the War--Italy, Japan, Romania--and never really became powerful in some of the losers--as Maurice Duverger has remarked, Kemalism in Turkey really had little in common with Fascism.) It's hard to see why such a movement would want to do away with the monarchy. Where monarchy existed, Fascists and Fascist-like movements tolerated it and sought to make use of it. It is true that in countries where it had been overthrown they did not necessarily try to restore it--Germany being the obvious example. But even that was not inevitably the case--after all, the monarchy was restored in Spain with the proviso that it would not go into effect until after Franco died.

All in all, successful fascisms were rarely anti-monarchy in countries where monarchy already existed and had not been overthrown [1]--and especially where monarchy was popular. I don't see why the UK would be an exception.

[1] I am leaving aside the Italian Social Republic as an anomaly caused by the circumstances of the Second World War.
 
I believe a widespread criticism of Mosley, voiced by critics as varied as Hitler and Orwell, was that his obsession with militaristic aesthetics was alien to the British character. I wonder how this would would manifest itself in an ATL of a CP victory.

So there's this great lil kaiserreich after action report called the Crown Atomic. Its not super plausible in terms of its initial premise (an exiled British government turning the Empire effectively fascist to reclaim the British isles ironically from a Stalinist Mosley) but its presentation of British authoritarianism I think is probably pretty spot on. It basically revolved around an alt Edward as a King-Emperor at the centre of an imperial cult of personality, who is portrayed as this ageless figure with a carefully manicured public persona. Propaganda promotes "a glorious past" and a bold brave future, the idea being to create a pan nationalist ideology that worships the Empire as a collective enterprise that was "almost lost" and must be safeguarded no matter the cost. This is seated in collective and desperate misery from two world wars and oceans of spilled blood. The population of the Empire in this alt is scarred by decades of war and grief, with sacrifice and martyrdom of fallen being core.

Parliament and democracy technically still exists but both are controlled by a technocratic shadow elite of aristocrats, industrialists, business magnates and military men answering to the King. This elite promotes an illusion of democracy but in reality, all political parties subscribe to the same ideological consensus and non compliant parties are not allowed to exist. The economy is state controlled and social credit is a tool used to control the populace, with service to the state as a soldier or bureaucrat lauded above all else. Consumerism is encouraged to basically anesthetize the population to the erosion of Democratic and civil liberties, and after decades of instability, a lot of people subscribe to this.

Limited workers rights are encouraged, although these are stripped away at the slightest hint of non compliance and are a tool of control rather than being a genuine concern for worker well being.

Women are encouraged to work and even serve in military auxiliaries, though cynically this is to make up manpower shortages the Empire faces, and things like prophylactics are state controlled to encourage women to also have children.

Children are mostly subject to propaganda at a young age and they are taught about the virtue of the Empire (encoraged to view it as a giant family under siege). Talented children are taken to join "pioneer schools" which brainwash them into to serve the a Empire and incorporate them into the technocratic elite.

The Empire also cynically embraces multiculturalism, though this is surface deep at best. Being an Empire, keeping the likes of India and Africa under thumb is important, and this manifests with the Empire paying lip service to Indian/African nationalism, if only to keep them placated while they exploit the populace and resources of both. Africans, Indians etc can advance in society, but there is a low ceiling for most.

Virtually any leftist sympathies, real or imagined, leaves individuals sidelined by society at best or imprisoned/dead at worst. Penal colonies in Australia and Canada exist for those that speak against the Empire, secret police round up and torture dissidents and dobbing in neighbors or family is encouraged.

Basically everything is a warped version of things Britons (at the time) cherished.

Militarism is promoted as duty, the monarchy is overblown and the Empire is the centre of this "glorious" nationalist mythos.
 
Last edited:
Top