I think Sweden acquiring nuclear weapons after this is perfectly acceptable. It would provide a deterrent to any more extensive Soviet dick-waving activities in their area. Also, Sweden has an exemplary record on acting rationally and not being an asshole on the international stage. I'd much rather have them get atomics than Best Korea or Pakistan.
Whiskey on the Rocks, The Soviet-Swedish War of 1981
- Thread starter Jim Smitty
- Start date
I agree that they're a nation that can be trusted to act responsibly. Adds another side in the deterrent against Soviet aggression (even if their time on this earth is about a decade) and NATO doesn't really have to worry about them trying to strongarm anybody.
Chineese were at the time a Soviet client state and had and still have a ridiculously large population..and the fallout from that divorce is still felt today - they had a border war because of their fall out for christs sake.
The continued support of the State of Israel is the creation of the Israeli lobby *Me? I don't mind them having a state - just that some of their foreign and domestic policies rub me the wrong way*..and one half of the planet loves while the other half hates them for it.
The Swedish are neither. They are not a client state, they don't have a big population and neither influential lobby groups. The one thing they will have is genuine international sympathy like the Israelis had after WW2..which is a stupendously powerful ace in the hole if played right.
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As the Soviets realize the Swedish were not going to back down, the Soviets decided to strike Swedish Naval and Air Bases. They made the call to use their ageing fleet of Il-28s and Tu-16s to keep this from looking like a massive strike on NATO. But in all told the Soviets sortie over 100 bombers, with a fighter escort over 400 hundred fighters.
As Swedish radar picked up the incoming the raid and saw the size of the raid, they fighter was ordered into the air. The Saab 37 were order to clear a path for all of the other fighters that were taking off on this massive sortie.
What happen next was the largest dog fight or the war. The Swedish had more kills than the Soviets in this dog fight, but the Soviets were able get to most of their targets. But the Swedish Air Force lost over 25% of its pre-war strength in his fight. The Famous Swedish fighter pilot Bengt Olausson who just retired after serving as the chief of staff for the Swedish Air Force said after he landed his Saab 37 fighter, "It was a bar room brawl in board day light." This is what give the dog fighter its name in later years. In Bar Room Brawl over three hundred aircraft of all sides were shot down.
Olausson would go on to finish the war with 21 air to air kills against the Soviets, the second highest scoring ace of the Swedish Air Force of the war.
But thanks to effort of the Swedish Air Force the bombing by the Soviets did not had the effect the Soviets hoped for. All but one of the Swedish air force bases would be operation within 12 hours of the raid.
As Swedish radar picked up the incoming the raid and saw the size of the raid, they fighter was ordered into the air. The Saab 37 were order to clear a path for all of the other fighters that were taking off on this massive sortie.
What happen next was the largest dog fight or the war. The Swedish had more kills than the Soviets in this dog fight, but the Soviets were able get to most of their targets. But the Swedish Air Force lost over 25% of its pre-war strength in his fight. The Famous Swedish fighter pilot Bengt Olausson who just retired after serving as the chief of staff for the Swedish Air Force said after he landed his Saab 37 fighter, "It was a bar room brawl in board day light." This is what give the dog fighter its name in later years. In Bar Room Brawl over three hundred aircraft of all sides were shot down.
Olausson would go on to finish the war with 21 air to air kills against the Soviets, the second highest scoring ace of the Swedish Air Force of the war.
But thanks to effort of the Swedish Air Force the bombing by the Soviets did not had the effect the Soviets hoped for. All but one of the Swedish air force bases would be operation within 12 hours of the raid.
So how bad were Soviet air losses? I know compared to the 25% of total strength lost by the Swedes they'll be minimal, but did the Swedes take down more than they lost?
Yes, the Swedish shot down more Soviets. But the Soviets have a lot more aircraft to throw into this fight.
Reagan announces a good will tour of Sweden by the US fleet.
The Soviets quickly realize that one or more American warships is going to be parked in every spot remotely resembling a naval target.
The Soviets quickly realize that one or more American warships is going to be parked in every spot remotely resembling a naval target.
Those Patriot missiles are brand spanking new, too.
What a great way to prove to the public (and to tell the dems to s* ** it) than to prove those misssiles are worth the money
.Hyperion
Banned
Even if Sweden comes out on the loosing end, they'll have effectively gutted the Soviet Baltic Fleet, and done no telling what kind of damage to the Soviet Air Forces.
So how will US and other NATO nations react through the end of the decade in their defense spending, given the sudden reduction in Soviet naval forces.
So how will US and other NATO nations react through the end of the decade in their defense spending, given the sudden reduction in Soviet naval forces.
I can imagine the US industrial-military complex lobbyists calling for more defense spending, spinning the situation as evidence that Soviet aggression is imminent and inevitable.
Yeah, that will be happening soon. If you have hard numbers on what the Swedish Air Force had in reserve, and be willing to tell me, I would be thankful.
Hyperion
Banned
I was more curious how the folks at the Pentagon would look at it.
The Swedish military, in the space of a couple days, has just gutted a major portion of the Soviet Baltic Fleet, and done massive damage to Soviet air power.
Otis R. Needleman
Banned
Agree with you re damage to the Baltic Fleet, but not re the Air Force/Naval Air Forces. The IL-28s and TU-16s were old even in the early 80s. The Soviets will have plenty to backfill any aircraft losses.
The Bar Room Brawl change the course of the war with again. The Swedish began a total mobilization. They started bring out storage old Saab 35, 32, 29 fighters. They even armed their Saab 105 in their training squadrons with AIM-9 Sidewinder to help make up for the losses in the front line fighter units.
The Soviets under Brezhnev, decided to show the Swedish that they could be crushed after the Bar Room Brawl. He ordered a Airborne Division to take Gotland. He believe one Gotland was under Soviet control, the Swedish would come to the peace table, and agree to Soviet terms. Since this type of operation would take a day or two to get ready, he spent the rest of the day working on were terms he would give the Swedish. No one knows what these terms would been, because they were lost in the aftermath of the war. but the general believe is they would make Versailles look like a fair peace treaty.
In the meant the US, UK, France, and PRC all order the boomers to put to sea. There were another of case in the American and British navy of the Blue and Gold crew mixing because of the quick orders to put to sea with all possible haste. America Strategic and forces within Germany went to DEFCON 2, and all other American force when to DEFCON 3 alert. The British, French and Chinese all follow suit with higher states of alert.
Reagan also order the start of Operation Freedom Ring to start. Freedom Ring was a massive airlift of military equipment that the US was given Sweden in her time of need. But unlike Operation Nickel Grass of eight years prior, Freedom Ring was more design to improve the anti-air abilities of the Swedish. Some notable equipment the Americans gave the Swedish, is the M247 Sergeant York Anti-Aircraft vehicle. There was only one prototype that was being tested. The M247 would prove to be a total failure, and the program was cancel soon after the war ended. But other equipment would prove much more useful to the Swedish, such as the MIM-23 Hawk and FIM-92 Stinger surface-to-air missile systems. The American also send in 400 plus air-to-air missiles to help the Swedish. Because by the 29, even thought the air war between Sweden and the Soviet Union had been going on for three days, the Swedish Air Force had used or loss in combat 45% of its total pre-war air-to-air missile stock.
As this was going on, the NSA satellite KH-14 was making a pass over the Soviet Union. It saw the airfield used by the 76th Guard Airborne Division preparing for a massive operation. This important moved at speed not normally seen by intelligence agency, and was bring shown to President Reagan only 3 hours later. This information was them passed on to Sweden 30 minutes after that.
The race was on.
The Soviets under Brezhnev, decided to show the Swedish that they could be crushed after the Bar Room Brawl. He ordered a Airborne Division to take Gotland. He believe one Gotland was under Soviet control, the Swedish would come to the peace table, and agree to Soviet terms. Since this type of operation would take a day or two to get ready, he spent the rest of the day working on were terms he would give the Swedish. No one knows what these terms would been, because they were lost in the aftermath of the war. but the general believe is they would make Versailles look like a fair peace treaty.
In the meant the US, UK, France, and PRC all order the boomers to put to sea. There were another of case in the American and British navy of the Blue and Gold crew mixing because of the quick orders to put to sea with all possible haste. America Strategic and forces within Germany went to DEFCON 2, and all other American force when to DEFCON 3 alert. The British, French and Chinese all follow suit with higher states of alert.
Reagan also order the start of Operation Freedom Ring to start. Freedom Ring was a massive airlift of military equipment that the US was given Sweden in her time of need. But unlike Operation Nickel Grass of eight years prior, Freedom Ring was more design to improve the anti-air abilities of the Swedish. Some notable equipment the Americans gave the Swedish, is the M247 Sergeant York Anti-Aircraft vehicle. There was only one prototype that was being tested. The M247 would prove to be a total failure, and the program was cancel soon after the war ended. But other equipment would prove much more useful to the Swedish, such as the MIM-23 Hawk and FIM-92 Stinger surface-to-air missile systems. The American also send in 400 plus air-to-air missiles to help the Swedish. Because by the 29, even thought the air war between Sweden and the Soviet Union had been going on for three days, the Swedish Air Force had used or loss in combat 45% of its total pre-war air-to-air missile stock.
As this was going on, the NSA satellite KH-14 was making a pass over the Soviet Union. It saw the airfield used by the 76th Guard Airborne Division preparing for a massive operation. This important moved at speed not normally seen by intelligence agency, and was bring shown to President Reagan only 3 hours later. This information was them passed on to Sweden 30 minutes after that.
The race was on.
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That's an unexpected but sensible butterfly: The Sergeant York being cancelled several years early.