Not to mention the Soviet and NVA advisers helping the NVA in Vietnam.
Whiskey on the Rocks, The Soviet-Swedish War of 1981
- Thread starter Jim Smitty
- Start date
Not to mention the Soviet and NVA advisers helping the NVA in Vietnam.
A fascinating concept...
...The Swedes are not likely to forgive Russia in a hurry. The Swedish Communist Party can be written off as 'fifth columnists'.
Sweden may be receiving 'volunteers' from Norway and Denmark shortly. An airborne invasion against prepared troops suffers from too light armament and too few troops. Crete or Arnhem writ large. Russia would have to commit Hinds and other tactical air to get anywhere - and remember that the Swedes at this time had local arms depots for their conscripts and the gun in the closet. Throw Stingers into the mix and it's another Afghanistan for the Soviets. Messy.
The sensible Swedes are possibly better organised in Civil Defence terms than the famous Swiss, so expect a mobilised population able to act as regulars or guerillas and able to take care of non-fighting dependents in the civil population. Russia will do the Swedes a lot of damage but will face as much trouble as they had from the Poles in the 1920s.
...The Swedes are not likely to forgive Russia in a hurry. The Swedish Communist Party can be written off as 'fifth columnists'.
Sweden may be receiving 'volunteers' from Norway and Denmark shortly. An airborne invasion against prepared troops suffers from too light armament and too few troops. Crete or Arnhem writ large. Russia would have to commit Hinds and other tactical air to get anywhere - and remember that the Swedes at this time had local arms depots for their conscripts and the gun in the closet. Throw Stingers into the mix and it's another Afghanistan for the Soviets. Messy.
The sensible Swedes are possibly better organised in Civil Defence terms than the famous Swiss, so expect a mobilised population able to act as regulars or guerillas and able to take care of non-fighting dependents in the civil population. Russia will do the Swedes a lot of damage but will face as much trouble as they had from the Poles in the 1920s.
But it needs to be noted that Operation Freedom Ring, wasn't the only military assistance, Sweden was given during the war. The Danish gave the Swedish 27 F-100D Super Saber fighters. The F-100 was due to be retired by the Danish Air Force the following year.
Now I know there had been talk over the years, that if the Danish gave the Swedish their Saab 35, the Swedish had been able to down even more Soviet fighters. Now you understand, many in NATO thought the Soviet would be crossing the Fulda Gap at any time. And they didn't want to give up anything more advance aircraft. But the F-100 Super Saber was still able to go toe to toe with the MiG-21s, MiG-25s, and Su-15 the Soviets were using. The MiG-21 was only a few years older in design than the F-100. The MiG-25 and Su-15 was a high speed fighter interceptor that had no business trying to dog fight.
The French also send on a dozen Dassault Mirage III fighters to Sweden. They also send four Roland 1 launchers and 60 missiles for these launchers.
But there was another thing that no one accounted for when this war start. That was the possibly of Soviet pilots defecting to the west. Ever since Viktor Belenko flew his MiG-25 to Japan and defected to America, the Soviets had limited the gas they had given to pilots so they couldn't defect to the west. But on the 28, Soviet Captain Ivan Pasechnik broke out the formation he was flying in. He landed his Su-15 armed with two AA-3 medium range air-to-air missiles in Denmark. When he was picked up by the E-3 on orbit over Copenhagen, the Danish Air Force scrambled six F-16s to escort the Pasechnik to a Danish Air Force base.
Then as the Bar Room Brawl was going on, Junior Lieutenant Victor Krotkov and his MiG-25 armed with two AA-6 missiles broke off from combat. Like Pasechnik the day before he was escorted to a Danish Air Force Base. And over the further three days of the war four more Soviet pilots were able to defect to the west. These aircraft flown into the west were two Su-17s, a MiG-21, and a Su-24. It is known that another eight Soviet pilots were shot down went trying to defect to the west, by the Soviets. But the Su-24 is the most notable of the defections that happen after the Bar Room Brawl. Its pilot Senior Lieutenant Marko Borodin shot and killed his weapon system operator in order to defect. The Danish and Americans gave Borodin a pardon. The Americans later made Borodin an American citizen in 1987.
Now I know there had been talk over the years, that if the Danish gave the Swedish their Saab 35, the Swedish had been able to down even more Soviet fighters. Now you understand, many in NATO thought the Soviet would be crossing the Fulda Gap at any time. And they didn't want to give up anything more advance aircraft. But the F-100 Super Saber was still able to go toe to toe with the MiG-21s, MiG-25s, and Su-15 the Soviets were using. The MiG-21 was only a few years older in design than the F-100. The MiG-25 and Su-15 was a high speed fighter interceptor that had no business trying to dog fight.
The French also send on a dozen Dassault Mirage III fighters to Sweden. They also send four Roland 1 launchers and 60 missiles for these launchers.
But there was another thing that no one accounted for when this war start. That was the possibly of Soviet pilots defecting to the west. Ever since Viktor Belenko flew his MiG-25 to Japan and defected to America, the Soviets had limited the gas they had given to pilots so they couldn't defect to the west. But on the 28, Soviet Captain Ivan Pasechnik broke out the formation he was flying in. He landed his Su-15 armed with two AA-3 medium range air-to-air missiles in Denmark. When he was picked up by the E-3 on orbit over Copenhagen, the Danish Air Force scrambled six F-16s to escort the Pasechnik to a Danish Air Force base.
Then as the Bar Room Brawl was going on, Junior Lieutenant Victor Krotkov and his MiG-25 armed with two AA-6 missiles broke off from combat. Like Pasechnik the day before he was escorted to a Danish Air Force Base. And over the further three days of the war four more Soviet pilots were able to defect to the west. These aircraft flown into the west were two Su-17s, a MiG-21, and a Su-24. It is known that another eight Soviet pilots were shot down went trying to defect to the west, by the Soviets. But the Su-24 is the most notable of the defections that happen after the Bar Room Brawl. Its pilot Senior Lieutenant Marko Borodin shot and killed his weapon system operator in order to defect. The Danish and Americans gave Borodin a pardon. The Americans later made Borodin an American citizen in 1987.
Well, now I think you went to far Smitty. Just to many desertion when motherland was in danger. 
But really How many desertion were there form Soviet pilots in Afghanistan? How many in Czechoslovakia? And in Czechoslovakia they had it just across the border. I know about 6 Soviet pilot deserting. At the same time range 3 Americans deserted.
But really How many desertion were there form Soviet pilots in Afghanistan? How many in Czechoslovakia? And in Czechoslovakia they had it just across the border. I know about 6 Soviet pilot deserting. At the same time range 3 Americans deserted.I know after Belenko, the Soviets limited the amount of fuel to their pilots to keep them from defecting to the West. But that isn't something you really can't do in combat. So i figure a number of pilots would try when they were given the chance.Well, now I think you went to far Smitty. Just to many desertion when motherland was in danger.
I know that we know it's going to be a short war, but they can't know that for sure. It's plausible that they would start talks to buy military equipment or even designs so they can build them on license themselves, in order to expedite the process of getting war materials they think they'll need.
On western border were probably most reliable pilots. Just to get into Air Force, you have been screened more then for new credit card. And it seems it worked. there were around 2 deserters from units stationed in Germany, Belenko, one plane to Austria in late 40 ties. One MiG 29 to Turkey and one more somewhere else. Writing now about it, I remember something about pilot of La 9 in Germany deserting to Sweden. But I am no so sure. Look, even Nazis didn't have to many pilots deserting. Actually. Even cases of Soviet pilots deserting to Germans in 1941 are rare.
I just thing yout desertion rate is to high. One pilot, it is plausible, two I can believe it. And that's about it. I do not remember single desertion mentioned during Afghan war. And If soviet pilot wanted, he could find opportunity.
Other side is. If you look at desertion from communist countries, usually they were guys without family or with family or career problems. In communist country if you have family you care about and ou didn't get yourself into other problems with regime you not going to desert from military. Especially if you are elite pilot. And commies made damn sure who they put on western border. Not just anybody could be sent to serve in units on western border? They doule check and triple checked. Of course sometimes somebody got through the system.
I just thing yout desertion rate is to high. One pilot, it is plausible, two I can believe it. And that's about it. I do not remember single desertion mentioned during Afghan war. And If soviet pilot wanted, he could find opportunity.
Other side is. If you look at desertion from communist countries, usually they were guys without family or with family or career problems. In communist country if you have family you care about and ou didn't get yourself into other problems with regime you not going to desert from military. Especially if you are elite pilot. And commies made damn sure who they put on western border. Not just anybody could be sent to serve in units on western border? They doule check and triple checked. Of course sometimes somebody got through the system.
Hyperion
Banned
There's no way they can do that.
It will help them to rebuild somewhat after the war though.
The timeline has a good basis, but logistically a lot of stuff is moving too fast or is too impractical.
Like moving that Alvin York AA gun vehicle to Sweden. To ship it from the US to Sweden, with equipment, train someone to use it, and then deploy it into the field would take longer than six days.
Is it possible that some of the pilots see their country going to war with another European nation as too far or too dangerous, and that's causing the high rate of desertions?
Maybe some but not on that degree. can you imagine desertion rate in USAAF or RAF during campaign against Germany? Only way I can imagine would be if pilots were from some Baltics SSR. But GRU made sure these guys were serving on Chinese border.
I don't know how extensively background checked the USSR kept their AF pilots, but from what others have been saying, I suppose it is pretty unlikely. Not impossible, but unlikely.
I am sorry.What is unlikely? As to background checks. in order to become NCO or CO you and your family needed to be clear. No family at west, no political activist etc. Of course people get through the system. There were desertions even in KGB.