Why didn't the name Shāng get re-used?

[Dorozhand]

Just mildly curious. I've noticed that the great majority of early feudal states in China had their names re-used by later states whose founders either had them as titles or were consciously attempting to call up their meanings and associations. Xià, Zhōu, Qín, Chǔ, Jìn, etc., all the great states of the feudal ages had this treatment, sometimes multiple times. Why didn't anyone name their state after Shāng? I know someone used Yīn. Was that considered a more auspicious name with the same association?

 

[Kaze]

The Shang Dynasty of 1600 to 1046 BC started off good, but ended very badly. It was considered not an auspicious ending as set down by the historians and by later myth-makers trying to explain how or why it fell coming down to blaming its King and his concubine Daji. The depiction of the last king of Shang got so bad that his name (or some characters from it) is the same name as the crupper (the part of a saddle or harness that is most likely to be soiled by the horse) - no later king would want people going around saying that he is a horse's ass.

 

[Avrorrange]

Just mildly curious. I've noticed that the great majority of early feudal states in China had their names re-used by later states whose founders either had them as titles or were consciously attempting to call up their meanings and associations. Xià, Zhōu, Qín, Chǔ, Jìn, etc., all the great states of the feudal ages had this treatment, sometimes multiple times. Why didn't anyone name their state after Shāng? I know someone used Yīn. Was that considered a more auspicious name with the same association?

Because people tended to name their states based on their existing title,where they originated from or the location where they rose to prominence.

Generally,titles of nobility were based on feudal states of the Zhou Dynasty rather than before.

The Shang Dynasty of 1600 to 1046 BC started off good, but ended very badly. It was considered not an auspicious ending as set down by the historians and by later myth-makers trying to explain how or why it fell coming down to blaming its King and his concubine Daji. The depiction of the last king of Shang got so bad that his name (or some characters from it) is the same name as the crupper (the part of a saddle or harness that is most likely to be soiled by the horse) - no later king would want people going around saying that he is a horse's ass.

The last ruler of the state of Xia was supposedly just as bad.Quite often,the last king of Xia and the last king of Shang were equated with one another and their names were used interchangeably as a metaphor to describe tyrants.

It’s worthwhile to note that while Shang wasn’t used, the name Song was used TWICE. The state of Song during the Zhou Dynasty was actually rump Shang—with the territory being given to the remaining members of the Shang royal family to rule as dukes as a sign of mercy by the Zhou rulers.This state preserved the records and traditions of Shang.

 

[Dorozhand]

The Shang Dynasty of 1600 to 1046 BC started off good, but ended very badly. It was considered not an auspicious ending as set down by the historians and by later myth-makers trying to explain how or why it fell coming down to blaming its King and his concubine Daji. The depiction of the last king of Shang got so bad that his name (or some characters from it) is the same name as the crupper (the part of a saddle or harness that is most likely to be soiled by the horse) - no later king would want people going around saying that he is a horse's ass.

I am aware of the last king of Shang, but the same is true of King Jie of Xia. And the Zhou empire didn't exactly end well either. All of these great early states after which later emperors named theirs had ignominious falls. The imagery being called upon was not the fall of the empire in question, but the rise and waxing of its virtue in any case.

King Tang of Shang is also a very well regarded figure. Probably among the earliest truly historical kings, although Jie also seems to have been a real person as well. Weather events described in his reign correspond to contemporary events elsewhere.

I've never bought the idea that the Xia dynasty never existed full stop. I think it corresponds fairly neatly with the civilization of the early Chinese bronze age, and palatial sites of the Erlitou culture correspond to the described capitals of Xia, while its fall seems to have been the result of agricultural disruption caused by the eruption of Santorini.

 

[Dorozhand]

Because people tended to name their states based on their existing title,where they originated from or the location where they rose to prominence.

I know. I kind of said that in the post.

 

[Dorozhand]

It’s worthwhile to note that while Shang wasn’t used, the name Song was used TWICE. The state of Song during the Zhou Dynasty was actually rump Shang—with the territory being given to the remaining members of the Shang royal family to rule as dukes as a sign of mercy by the Zhou rulers.This state preserved the records and traditions of Shang.

That's interesting. So perhaps Song was considered a more auspicious title than Shang that carried the same meaning.

 

[Avrorrange]

That's interesting. So perhaps Song was considered a more auspicious title than Shang that carried the same meaning.

Not really.It's because the founder of the first Song Dynasty traced his family to the area roughly around the original state of Song and had the Jin emperor make him the King of Song.Curiously enough,he could have named the state Han given he's a descendant of the Han Imperial family,but decided not to do so because the name Han was too tainted by that stage,given it was frequently used by barbarian states.

The second Song Dynasty was named such because the first emperor was the Prefect of Song Prefecture prior to him ascending the throne.

As for the name Xia,it’s was used by the Tanguts because one of the original areas they ruled over was the Xia Prefecture.

I’m not so sure about why Dou Jiande named his state Xia though,but given he was a peasant leader who wasn’t particularly well educated,there might not be a good reason except for ‘it sounds great’.Other barbarian leaders might have possibly used the name Xia because it gives them a fig leaf of legitimacy.

 

[Avrorrange]

I think the real problem in regards to why people don’t use the name Shang is because unlike Xia and Zhou,Shang was not regarded as the first dynasty by people and neither does it have the prestige of Zhou.Zhou was much more prestigious due to the way how a ridiculous number of philosophers lived during that period(including Confucius) and the early period of Zhou was held in high regard by them.