WI France colonizes New York after Verrazzano's 1524 visit?

Feargus O'Sullivan at CityLab took a look at a new documentary, If New York Was Called Angouleme. What if the site of New York City was colonized by the French in the early 16th century, following on Verrazzano's visit?

I am willing to bet that the effects of a French settlement of the Eastern Seaboard a century before OTL's settlement of (mainly) the St. Lawrence would have bigger effects than, as O'Sullivan suggested, a French-accented elite. This would be the POD, I would think, for a Francophone North America.

Mind, you would first have to get France interested. This would be a challenge, given the preoccupation of early 16th century France with its land frontiers; Angouleme was taken in honour of King Francis, taken captive in battle. I do not think it impossible, though, if things were sufficiently tweaked. Perhaps, as in 17th century England, the tumult in 16th century France might drive substantial migration west to New France.

Thoughts?
 
Feargus O'Sullivan at CityLab took a look at a new documentary, If New York Was Called Angouleme. What if the site of New York City was colonized by the French in the early 16th century, following on Verrazzano's visit?

I am willing to bet that the effects of a French settlement of the Eastern Seaboard a century before OTL's settlement of (mainly) the St. Lawrence would have bigger effects than, as O'Sullivan suggested, a French-accented elite. This would be the POD, I would think, for a Francophone North America.

Mind, you would first have to get France interested. This would be a challenge, given the preoccupation of early 16th century France with its land frontiers; Angouleme was taken in honour of King Francis, taken captive in battle. I do not think it impossible, though, if things were sufficiently tweaked. Perhaps, as in 17th century England, the tumult in 16th century France might drive substantial migration west to New France.

Thoughts?

Well, if it does successfully settle continental North America 80 years earlier than OTL, and in a better location to start with, it may control all the coast from the Saint Lawrence bay to Virginia.
 
In a thread of mine, I've tried to explore that. But back then, the idea was for a site that could ensure a successful Hughenot colony in the new world by Coligny instead of the costly failures in Florida and Brazil.
The pod is basically Verrazano wintering on the site due to damages needing repairs.
Else, the incentive for sustained colonization at the time wasn't really there. France was too deeply invested in the Italian wars for a significant effort. Presence was essentially for economical purposes, namely fisheries around Newfoundland (or Terre Neuve) and Acadia, and fur trade after that. The only sustained colonization attempt of note by the French in the 16th century was that of the Hughenots (given the context of persecutions and the Wars of religion, you would understand why easily), while that of Cartier never went anywhere as far.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/wi-an-early-new-france.378875/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_Antarctique
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Caroline
 
One of their chiefest hurdles would be settlement. French policy in North America rarely went further beyond fur traders (coureur des bois and voyageurs) and missionaries to convert the Native Americans. The French banned Protestants and foreigners from settling in French American territory. You'd need a massive shift in French settlement policy, and get the Huguenots and non-French Catholics to be allowed settlement rights in North America.

By the time of the Seven Years War, there was 70,000 French in New France compared to almost two million in British America.
 
I think this is doable. For a POD, I suggest that the attempts in the 1560s to colonize what became northern Florida and South Carolina are not made and the funding and colonists directed to what became New York harbor instead. An earlier date doesn't really work because France didn't really start trying until decades after Verrazzano's voyage.

We will assume that they construct their main fort in lower Manhattan like the Dutch and not, say, on the west bank of the Hudson so this version of New York city develops sort of like ours.

They beat the Dutch to what we call New York, and since the French are already moving into Quebec, the next logical step is to establish a chain for forts between Manhattan and Montreal Island, not just St. Jean and Ticonderoga but they will establish forts at least on the sites of Fort George, Albany, and probably also in the Hudson HIghlands to establish a continuous chain between Manhattan and Quebec. This is done instead of pushing into the Great Lakes and Mississippi, so what is lost are the French forts at Niagara and Detroit. THey might be established later, but a less aggressive French push into the Great Lakes because the Hudson corridor is prioritized probably butterflies away the pushes to the Ohio and Mississippi rivers (Pittsburgh and St. Louis), though Biloxi and New Orleans are probably still on.

The low numbers of French colonists are not, and were not IOTL, a problem in maintaining a colonial empire in the seventeenth century. It only became a problem really after 1750 due mainly to the British allowing unchecked European immigration into their colonies. We might get more French colonists anyway, even with them bstill eing picky about who gets to settle there, if the Hudson Valley is available to settlement. And being able to link up to Quebec can only help the Hudson Valley settlements.

This will butterfly away the fall of New Sweden. For reasons I am not familiar with, the Dutch got into a war with Sweden at some point. Sweden was consistently a French ally during this period. And Sweden never went to war with England either, again unlike the Dutch, so the English probably also leave the Delaware Valley alone as well.

The question is what England and the United Provinces do with these new facts on the ground. Do they still try to grab the French and Swedish colonies in the Mid Atlantic or do they divert their efforts elsewhere? This is a good question. The Dutch were always at war with Franch in the seventeenth century, but England or at least its kings were friendly to France until 1688, enemies afterwards. I think the English don't move against the French and Dutch colonies under the Stuarts and the colony for the Duke of York is found by moving forward the colonization of Georgia into the seventeenth century. But the Dutch may make a grab for Manhattan. The problems here are the French are in a better position to fight back than the Dutch were against the English, and the WIC is always prioritizing the Caribbean and South America, they after all preferred to go with Guinea to New York IOTL, so they probably try to grab more Caribbean islands and forget about the beavers.

The grants to Penn, Carteret, and Berkeley, what developed into Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Delaware, were carved out of the grant allocated to James Stuart, Duke of York. ITTL, the Duke of York is granted Georgia. Maybe its enlarged by transferring South Carolina into this sphere, but the English could try to grab St. Augustine (though tye were not at war with Spain during this period) or the Bahamas get more settled. But the existence of Philadelphia is butteflied away.

And apart from mainland Nova Scotia/ Acadia, the British swallowed up French North America in one go in 1758-60 (they took Louisbourg earlier but traded it back), so we are looking at a French Hudson Valley and a Swedish Delaware Valley through 1750. But the French are not moving in towards the Ohio ITTL so the British/ Virginia move into that area. As far as the American colonists are concerned, there is no need for the "French and Indian War". Compared to our timeline, there is much more English settlement in what became western Pennsylvania, Georgia, and maybe Kentucky as well and none in what became Eastern Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, and Delaware. Instead, Eastern Pennsylvania, Delaware, and southern New Jersey are Swedish, and New York and maybe northern New Jersey are French. The Swedes are fine with German Protestants settling there area so this still happens. The Hudson Valley is less settled than IOTL and probably also the Delaware Valley, but the total number of northern Europeans in mainland North America is actually slightly higher since there are more Swedes and French.

The Seven Years War and the French and Indian War plays out differently. A lot depends on whether French armed Indians are still raiding New England ITTL. If they are, the British and their colonists still move against TTL Quebec. If not, they may well leave it alone. If they leave it alone, no contracts to the colonists that get withdrawn in the austerity budgets of the 1760s and 1770s and the American War of Independence and possibly the French Revolution go away in the form we know them. And if the British due take over the French and Swedish colonies later on some excuse, there is little to no solidarity between New England and its grievances and the now more populous English colonies in the South (no connection) or any colonies conquered in the Middle Atlantic (not enough English speakers).
 
Out of the big Italian navigators for hire, everyone remembers Columbus and Cabot but never Verrazzano.

I didn't even know Cabot was Italian (could've swore he actually was French.)

As for Verrazzano, most New Yorkers know him (myself included). We wouldn't have built a bridge named after him if he wasn't important.
 
I have no doubt the Dutch would still want to become part of the North American Fur trade. Where would still be room for the Dutch? Upper New England and the Maritimes?
 
I have no doubt the Dutch would still want to become part of the North American Fur trade. Where would still be room for the Dutch? Upper New England and the Maritimes?

Sure, but giving the French an 80 years advantage over colonial rivals would dramatically reduce opportunities for the Dutch as well as for the English. Just consider the Spanish and Portuguese positions in central and South America.
 
The interest of a pod with Verrazano is not about immediate settlement, it's about getting the knowledge of the Manhattan site available to future expeditions. The issue that doomed Hughenot adventures in Americas was their lack of suitable places for settlement, and in the mid 16th century, available knowledge of American coasts was still limited. Verrazano's wintering near Manhattan would make de Coligny aware of the site's existence and its potential value for settlement. So, instead of wasting their efforts in Brazil and Florida, they go straight to Manhattan and settle there, to last.
As for the corridor to Montreal, you still get to have the French penetrating this far into the St Lawrence valley, which didn't happen until Champlain in the early 17th century, or about half a century after the Hughenots' attempts. Besides, the corridor isn't so much of a priority to be, if you get into local perspective. The two primary motives for expansion by the French were fur trade and the northwest route to China, both of which warranted an expansion further up the St Lawrence valley and into the Great Lakes, along important waterways. Meanwhile, the Hudson valley corridor is still for most of its length under native control, and for all the good will of the French, the effort required to secure it far outweighs the potential benefits for the time being - ie until Louis XIV's reign at least; New Angoulesme and Quebec remain easier to access, the former from the ocean and the latter through the river, than by overland route. Plus, another political factor is to account for. While the St Lawrence valley and Acadian settlements are likely to be mostly Catholic as IOTL, New Angoulesme would be a Hughenot colony. Its identity is particular, and it's likely to be autonomous and separate from that of the Saint Laurent valley colony. Even, the suppression of Protestant revolt by Louis XIII and Richelieu in the 1620s is going to reflect on both colonies and turn the land between them two into a proxy war battleground - that is if New Angoulesme evades capture by Royal forces from sea.
 
I wonder what other powers could have hired Italian navigators (really captains). Did the Portuguese just not need any? Even the legend of Prince Zichmni‘s voyage involves the Zeno brothers, who are Italian.
 
I wonder what other powers could have hired Italian navigators (really captains). Did the Portuguese just not need any? Even the legend of Prince Zichmni‘s voyage involves the Zeno brothers, who are Italian.
I mean Portugal was a rump state off the european coast. All they needed was a way to avoid being reconquista-d themselves was a way to keep spain away, like say, an alliance with England and decently positive relations with Castile. They had that. So they could focus on boats in a way even england couldn't with the french lands
 
I myself am a New Yorker (but from Upstate, now living Downstate), and Verrazzano was the name of a bridge I had no idea he was a navigator that got here almost a hundred years before Hudson(who in the lore of the state is much bigger). If Verrazzano's expeditions get French settlement on the Island of Manhattan or Staten Island, then much of New York state has new names for a lot of things, especially the Hudson valley.

If the French do settle, and also settle the North, do we not see the rise of the Iroquois who then don't have competing European powers to play off eachother?
 
I myself am a New Yorker (but from Upstate, now living Downstate), and Verrazzano was the name of a bridge I had no idea he was a navigator that got here almost a hundred years before Hudson(who in the lore of the state is much bigger). If Verrazzano's expeditions get French settlement on the Island of Manhattan or Staten Island, then much of New York state has new names for a lot of things, especially the Hudson valley.

If the French do settle, and also settle the North, do we not see the rise of the Iroquois who then don't have competing European powers to play off eachother?
France was generally speaking more okay with trading with natives than the Anglo-Americans, and we see this in the settlement style.
Spain: "come on over for riches and power. The worse you are a person the better you'll do."
England: "alright get going you bloody poors. Don't forget: total. Replacement."
France: "Non, only the best for new france! Priests, nobles, literally the bare minimum of upper class women, but no paupers."

Obviously there is some oversimplification
 

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I myself am also a New Yorker. Would the French have ended up creating an extension of Quebec into New York? If it gets big enough, or if France has a large enough settlement, it could connect down with the Louisianan areas and create some sort of mega-new France. Would this area be controlled by the French for longer than we would expect, or would some alternate situation lead the French to do taxes on it, and we would basically have an American Revolution style of revolt? Maybe instead of a revolution in France, many revolutionaries leave for the new world, and in doing so, spell the seeds of a French Revolution...but in America?

Could it end up in a situation like this? Reverse Napoleonic wars?

wqw6bijn0je31.png
 
One of their chiefest hurdles would be settlement. French policy in North America rarely went further beyond fur traders (coureur des bois and voyageurs) and missionaries to convert the Native Americans. The French banned Protestants and foreigners from settling in French American territory. You'd need a massive shift in French settlement policy, and get the Huguenots and non-French Catholics to be allowed settlement rights in North America.

By the time of the Seven Years War, there was 70,000 French in New France compared to almost two million in British America.

Originally, Protestants were able to settle. It was when the Compagnie des Cent-Associés was founded (1627) that they were banned. That was in the context of the Huguenot uprisings of the 1620s. Maybe if there is no uprising, they are allowed to continue?
 
Originally, Protestants were able to settle. It was when the Compagnie des Cent-Associés was founded (1627) that they were banned. That was in the context of the Huguenot uprisings of the 1620s. Maybe if there is no uprising, they are allowed to continue?

Keeping the Huguenot rebellions from occurring would be a good method. Compared to the English colonies on the Atlantic Coast, New France had a far smaller population, while the English colonies permitted religious dissenters to settle there. Allowing the Huguenots to settle would be a massive boon for New France's demography. Something like 100,000 Huguenots settled in the Dutch Republic when the Edict of Fontainbleu was enacted and a substantial number settled in New Netherland.
 
But if france lets protestants in without laxing the policy as a whole about who gets to settle, could France even keep it?
 
With French trying to settle more decisivley in the North, the Netherlands would be forced to look elsewhere for colonies.

Also, important reminder, settler colonialism is expensive, risky, dangerous, and it is almost a fluke of history settler colonist states ended up on top. In a world like this, Canada and the US would be far more "Metis" than white, most likely.
 
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