WI: Mary dies during the Great Matter

Euphemios

Euphemios

What if the Princess had died during Henry VIII's struggle for the annulment of his marriage? Suppose that she catches the sweating disease, followed by a very much predictable result.
I assume Katherine's spirit will be broken by this, as will Henry's to some extent. Will he be accused of planning her death by other means?
Will the Pope be more accepting of an annulment, the Spanish forces in his backyard notwithstanding, with the King distinctly lacking any kind of heir?
 

Jeff Goldplum

Not sure if the Pope would be any more accepting, given that Charles V (Catherine's nephew) was breathing down his neck at the time. Henry's reaction would depend on whether or not Catherine lives. If so, well, Henry keeps trying for another heir; after all, it's a son he wants. If she dies, he gets a new wife and tries again, with bonus points of England not (presumably, yet) breaking with the Catholic Church.
 
Euphemios

Euphemios

Had Henry not viewed their marriage to have been cursed? Why would he be content with it now, with their only surviving child now dead?
 
RedKing

RedKing

Catherine might actually stepdown because of this, since she may well take Mary's death as a sign of God's dissatisfaction with her marriage to Henry VIII. If she does step down she likely retires to a convent, while Henry VIII gives her some lands, a sizeable pension, etc, while he marries Anne Boleyn (or maybe a foreign Princess depending on how things play out).
 
hanoverians

hanoverians

Agreed with RedKing. With Mary gone, Catherine might voluntarily step down. But even if she doesn’t, Henry will probably get his annulment from the Pope. Emperor or not, Charles V can’t really raise the dead, and aside from that, he was an opportunist. With Mary dead and Catherine looking less and less likely to be able to conceive again (she was 42 in 1528, which was when there was the big sweating sickness outbreak), it wouldn’t be worth it for him at all to continue defending her. Especially when he could always try and push an Imperial bride on Henry once the annulment is granted.

He probably wouldn’t be successful since Henry has his heart set on Anne Boleyn at this point, but still.
 

JamesHunter

hanoverians said:
Agreed with RedKing. With Mary gone, Catherine might voluntarily step down. But even if she doesn’t, Henry will probably get his annulment from the Pope. Emperor or not, Charles V can’t really raise the dead, and aside from that, he was an opportunist. With Mary dead and Catherine looking less and less likely to be able to conceive again (she was 42 in 1528, which was when there was the big sweating sickness outbreak), it wouldn’t be worth it for him at all to continue defending her. Especially when he could always try and push an Imperial bride on Henry once the annulment is granted.

He probably wouldn’t be successful since Henry has his heart set on Anne Boleyn at this point, but still.
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Depends on realpolitik, Henry might be offered an imperial match in exchange for some forgiveness over how he's been treating Catherine since Charles is probably still not best pleased with him. Depends if they need each other at that point, although with Germany growing infested with Protestants a deal that gets Henry to strongly support the Church is in the best interest of Charles.

The alternative is Henry tries to get Heney Fitzroy declared legitimate although that has its own problems (most notably what happened in 1483 and that England hasn't had a bastard monarch since William I).
 
hanoverians

hanoverians

JamesHunter said:
Depends on realpolitik, Henry might be offered an imperial match in exchange for some forgiveness over how he's been treating Catherine since Charles is probably still not best pleased with him. Depends if they need each other at that point, although with Germany growing infested with Protestants a deal that gets Henry to strongly support the Church is in the best interest of Charles.

The alternative is Henry tries to get Heney Fitzroy declared legitimate although that has its own problems (most notably what happened in 1483 and that England hasn't had a bastard monarch since William I).
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True! What potential Imperial matches are there at that point? I know Charles's sister Mary was about 22-23 in 1528 and she was recently widowed with no children, but IIRC, she resisted all of Charles's attempts to find her a new husband before she became his governor in The Netherlands. So she's probably not a viable option.

I can also see Henry trying to get Fitzroy declared legitimate, but you're right; many problems would arise from that.
 
ordinarylittleme

ordinarylittleme

Katherine, devastated and heartbroken, is forced to agree that their marriage is now childless. However I think she wouldn't necessarily back down more easily. Does she fight harder, believing that Mary would not die if Henry had just acknowledged and approved of her as heiress, and that it is her mission to defend her daughter's rights no matter what, whether or not Mary can actually enjoy her position anymore? She could certainly believe that Mary is encouraging her from heaven to ensure Anne never becomes queen.
 
Tudorfan

Tudorfan

If Mary died in the great Matter, then Catherine's gone; the church might give in easier too - they need an heir to survive civil war and Catherine at her age can't give one, so let's agree to make the King head of the church and appoint his own heirs for the sake of avoiding civil war. At least until a legitimate boy is born anyway...
 

Cate13

Kellan Sullivan said:
@isabella @BlueFlowwer
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Don't summon BlueFlowwer this is like her worst nightmare.

Without the promise of his blood on the English throne, Charles' isn't going to back Catherine. He might push a marriage with either his sister or a proxy. (Though I have no idea if Spain or the Empire has a reasonable proxy). Henry's already obsessing of Anne, so I don't see him accepting a foreign match, but it could happen. If there isn't a foreign match, Anne has decent odds at having a son: less stress, she's younger. Also, there could be a just a better attitude towards her in England, if the general populace believe Mary's death indicates God's anger at Henry and Catherine's marriage.
 
Tudorfan

Tudorfan

Cate13 said:
Don't summon BlueFlowwer this is like her worst nightmare.

Without the promise of his blood on the English throne, Charles' isn't going to back Catherine. He might push a marriage with either his sister or a proxy. (Though I have no idea if Spain or the Empire has a reasonable proxy). Henry's already obsessing of Anne, so I don't see him accepting a foreign match, but it could happen. If there isn't a foreign match, Anne has decent odds at having a son: less stress, she's younger. Also, there could be a just a better attitude towards her in England, if the general populace believe Mary's death indicates God's anger at Henry and Catherine's marriage.
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It certainly makes Imperial relations better too - Anne isn't usurping Catherine. God has basically damned Catherine by killing her heirs, so Imperial relations are much improved.
 
FalconHonour

FalconHonour

Tudorfan said:
@FalconHonour - yoohoo, your thoughts? This seams your forte too!
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You called?

Well, I think @Cate13 is right, Henry's pushing harder for an annulment without even Mary in the nursery, and Charles probably has no reason not to let him have one if his cousin won't be set aside as heiress, not if Henry agrees to treat Katherine with honour as the Dowager Princess of Wales. Which means BlackFriars will go in Henry's favour in 1529, Katherine has to accept that the Pope has ruled against her marriage, and Anne becomes unchallenged Queen of England, with three and a half extra years, at least, to give Henry a son.

Family tree in this scenario:

Henry m. 1509 Katherine of Aragon (a) m. 1529 Anne Boleyn (b)
1a. Lady Mary (1516-1528)
2b. Lady Elizabeth (b.1530)
3b. miscarriage (1531)
4b. Edward, Prince of Wales (b.1532)
5b. George, Duke of York (b.1533)
6b. miscarriage (1534)
7b. Henry, Duke of Bedford (1536-1541)
8b. Lady Anne (b.1537)
 
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Tudorfan

Tudorfan

FalconHonour said:
You called?

Well, I think @Cate13 is right, Henry's pushing harder for an annulment without even Mary in the nursery, and Charles probably has no reason not to let him have one if his cousin won't be set aside as heiress, not if Henry agrees to treat Katherine with honour as the Dowager Princess of Wales. Which means BlackFriars will go in Henry's favour in 1529, Katherine has to accept that the Pope has ruled against her marriage, and Anne becomes unchallenged Queen of England, with three and a half extra years, at least, to give Henry a son.

Family tree in this scenario:

Henry m. 1509 Katherine of Aragon (a) m. 1529 Anne Boleyn (b)
1a. Princess Mary (1516-1528)
2b. Princess Elizabeth (b.1530)
3b. miscarriage (1531)
4b. Edward, Prince of Wales (b.1532)
5b. George, Duke of York (b.1533)
6b. miscarriage (1534)
7b. Edmund, Duke of Bedford (b.1536)
8b. Lady Anne (b.1537)
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Sounds about right, but I think there'd be a Henry in there. Or are you forgetting Henry's ego?
 
hanoverians

hanoverians

Tudorfan said:
Sounds about right, but I think there'd be a Henry in there. Or are you forgetting Henry's ego?
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Agreed that there would probably be a Henry in there, but other than that this sounds right.

What do we think happens with Catherine here? Does she retire to a nunnery, or simply live on the estates granted to her by Henry? Or something else?
 
Euphemios

Euphemios

Considering the last George of note amongst the Plantagenets, I am inclined to think that George Tudor would more likely be a Henry.
 
Tudorfan

Tudorfan

Euphemios said:
Considering the last George of note amongst the Plantagenets, I am inclined to think that George Tudor would more likely be a Henry.
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You think? I think Henry might do a George just to go "Look how much better we are than the Plantagenets! We have a loyal George and not an evil traitorous one!"
 
FalconHonour

FalconHonour

Euphemios said:
Considering the last George of note amongst the Plantagenets, I am inclined to think that George Tudor would more likely be a Henry.
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Named him after Anne's brother :)
hanoverians said:
Agreed that there would probably be a Henry in there, but other than that this sounds right.

What do we think happens with Catherine here? Does she retire to a nunnery, or simply live on the estates granted to her by Henry? Or something else?
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Tudorfan said:
Sounds about right, but I think there'd be a Henry in there. Or are you forgetting Henry's ego?
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We already have Hal Fitzroy, don't forget. Do we need two boys named Henry?
 
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