Born in what is today Greece to an Albanian family, Muhammad Ali takes advantage of chaos in Egypt to install himself and his descendants there as rulers of Egypt under nominal Ottoman auspices. He would go on to wage two separate wars against the Ottoman Empire, and both times saw his efforts curtailed by tacit support among the Great Powers for the Ottomans. Suppose though that one or more great power backed his wars against the Ottomans, or that none intervened to slow or stop his efforts?
WI: Muhammad Ali Pasha supported by Great Power(s) in his wars with the Ottomans?
- Thread starter Wendell
- Start date
France was in favour of Muhamad Ali and had tried to defend Egyptian interests. But this was still at a time when France had not returned to the concert of Europe (because of the Napoleonic wars) and therefore had no political weight on the international scene.
It was even this situation that triggered the Rhine crisis or, after a nationalist impulse, the French government of Adolphe Thiers claimed the entire left bank of the Rhine (when you're called you always have a problem with the Rhine valley, curious
).
For Egypt to succeed, France would have to be in a better position in Europe and have a certain political weight on the international scene, which is difficult after Napoleon.
I have the memory of an agreement or in exchange for renouncing Syria, Muhammad Ali could set up his hereditary dynasty in Cairo, he refused and he lost to the Ottomans helped by the Europeans.
It was even this situation that triggered the Rhine crisis or, after a nationalist impulse, the French government of Adolphe Thiers claimed the entire left bank of the Rhine (when you're called you always have a problem with the Rhine valley, curious
).For Egypt to succeed, France would have to be in a better position in Europe and have a certain political weight on the international scene, which is difficult after Napoleon.
I have the memory of an agreement or in exchange for renouncing Syria, Muhammad Ali could set up his hereditary dynasty in Cairo, he refused and he lost to the Ottomans helped by the Europeans.
Wait a day or two before raising a thread, even if the subject is very interesting it may take a while before you get an answer.
Getting the Great Powers to support him is tricky because if one backs him others are going to oppose him to balance them out, which is what happened IOTL. What you could do is have the Great Powers be too distracted to intervene on either side. If cooler heads fail to prevail the 1830 Revolutions could have escalated into a general European war which would keep them from being able to intervene in Ottoman Affairs.
What might entice the powers to stay out short of a general war, or even use the opportunity to fight the Ottomans themselves?
Which Powers are you talking about? Because France, Russia and Britain all had conflicting interests in the region.
The main trouble is that most of the great powers had more of an interest in weakening the Ottoman Empire by keeping Muhammad Ali and the Sultan at each other's throat. Allowing one side to win out would result in a strong and unified Empire which, at the very least, would be very against Russian interests.
But Muhammad Ali remaining an antagonist instead of a vassal better achieves that aim, no?
If the Great Powers had backed him, or even stayed out, then it is likely that Muhammad Ali could have taken the whole Empire, or at least set up a pliant puppet Sultan with himself in charge.
He was about to march on Istanbul before the Europeans intervened.
I thought he had just won a battle at Konya. Clearing the rest of the Ottoman military in Asia may have been at hand, but that's considerably different than being at the walls.
Oh yeah, one of my favourite what if!
What would Muhammad or his descendants do if they actually "succeed"? Would they take over Ottoman empire, directly or indirectly (as power behind their puppet sultan?)? It was possibility, without great powers intervention, in second war, even turkish admrial with whole fleet defect to Muhammad! Way to Istanbul was probably open (if not for westerners meddling)
Or woud he build some "arabian empire", from Iraq to North Africa instead? Ali probably don´t (he surely wasnt arabian nationalis, but his descendant otl "arabize" themselve)
Or something else? Some sort of "neoegyptian empire" expanding into Africa?
Intervention of Europeans surely need to be avoided. Not only their intervention in 1839 but also Baltaliman convention which probably badly hurt egypt economy. However, I doubt there is a way how to compeltely avoid some GP meddling. But this is not needed! There were after all just two power which thwarted his attempts: UK and Russia (and about second one, I am not sure how much would be able to project its power into Levant...) What if Muhammad play Britain and Russia, already rivals, against each other? He actually try something like this, but didn´t succeed, Brits get with some sort of "collective protectorate over Turkey" instead... Britain would be however dangerous ally...
Another possibility is to avoid intervention, which is, as I said, unlikely. One possiblity is already mentioned one: GP are busy elswhere, probably back home in Europe with something. But there is second one: "float under their radar", to not became thread to them. Was that possibility, in combination with reforms and, eventually, expansion?
Where to place PoD? 1830 and first war against sultan? Or 1839 and second war? Maybe some different outcome of Greek war?
Some alternate choices: 1. North African expansion - there was some plan to partition north Africa between Egypt and France in 1830 A)lgeria to France, Tripolis and possibly Tunis to Muhammad), Muhammad however step back and get for Levant instead, with known results...
2. Tusun Pasha do not die - he was seen as most able of Muhammad descendants and natural heir, however die fairly young... maybe he would really be great ruler?
What would Muhammad or his descendants do if they actually "succeed"? Would they take over Ottoman empire, directly or indirectly (as power behind their puppet sultan?)? It was possibility, without great powers intervention, in second war, even turkish admrial with whole fleet defect to Muhammad! Way to Istanbul was probably open (if not for westerners meddling)
Or woud he build some "arabian empire", from Iraq to North Africa instead? Ali probably don´t (he surely wasnt arabian nationalis, but his descendant otl "arabize" themselve)
Or something else? Some sort of "neoegyptian empire" expanding into Africa?
Intervention of Europeans surely need to be avoided. Not only their intervention in 1839 but also Baltaliman convention which probably badly hurt egypt economy. However, I doubt there is a way how to compeltely avoid some GP meddling. But this is not needed! There were after all just two power which thwarted his attempts: UK and Russia (and about second one, I am not sure how much would be able to project its power into Levant...) What if Muhammad play Britain and Russia, already rivals, against each other? He actually try something like this, but didn´t succeed, Brits get with some sort of "collective protectorate over Turkey" instead... Britain would be however dangerous ally...
Another possibility is to avoid intervention, which is, as I said, unlikely. One possiblity is already mentioned one: GP are busy elswhere, probably back home in Europe with something. But there is second one: "float under their radar", to not became thread to them. Was that possibility, in combination with reforms and, eventually, expansion?
Where to place PoD? 1830 and first war against sultan? Or 1839 and second war? Maybe some different outcome of Greek war?
Some alternate choices: 1. North African expansion - there was some plan to partition north Africa between Egypt and France in 1830 A)lgeria to France, Tripolis and possibly Tunis to Muhammad), Muhammad however step back and get for Levant instead, with known results...
2. Tusun Pasha do not die - he was seen as most able of Muhammad descendants and natural heir, however die fairly young... maybe he would really be great ruler?