WI: Napoleon stays as a Republican rather than adopting Monarchism?

[Basileus_Komnenos]

What if Napoleon instead of adopting the trappings and foundations of the First Empire, stays true to his old Republican ideals and maintains and eventually reforms the Consulate? How would this affect Europe and its political re-organization? What would happen to his various conquests if Napoleon in ttl is a Republican instead of an Emperor? Would he unite Germany into a puppet Republic, or would it be a loose confederation of various puppet states in some form of Confederation? What would be the fate of Italy in this timeline? Would just unite the peninsula around the Italian Republic?

How would the rest of Europe respond to this Republican wave sweeping through Europe? If Napoleon ends up defeated like in otl, how would the Coalition forces re-shape Europe in this alternate Congress of Vienna?

If Napoleon wins, how much could he theoretically control? What would be the political landscape of this new European political framework centered around France's Republican Empire?

 

[Whiteshore]

If Napoleon ends up defeated like in otl, how would the Coalition forces re-shape Europe in this alternate Congress of Vienna?

And on that note, how do you think would this affect things when 1848 rolls around in such a scenario where he opts to maintain the republic instead of becoming Emperor?

 

[Basileus_Komnenos]

And on that note, how do you think would this affect things when 1848 rolls around in such a scenario where he opts to maintain the republic instead of becoming Emperor?

I mean 1848 was a product of the failures of the 1830 Revolutions which was a reaction to the Royalist Counterrevolution in response to the Revolution and Liberalism following Napoleon's defeat in otl.

 

[Arcavia]

I mean 1848 was a product of the failures of the 1830 Revolutions which was a reaction to the Royalist Counterrevolution in response to the Revolution and Liberalism following Napoleon's defeat in otl.

Yep. Such a major POD like Napoleon staying Republican probably butterflies 1848 absolutely.

As for the OP, I'd say that the question fundamentally depends on what Napoleon "staying Republican" actually means. Does he make himself a Dictator Perpetuus a la Caesar or Cromwell? Does he take the opposite tack, and step down eventually, possibly after Amiens, and if so does he retire completely or merely surrender political power and remain a general? Does he go somewhere in between, as Marius did historically and Putin is doing today, where he manipulates electoral results and relies on the army's loyalty to remain dominant while still technically holding regular elections?

 

[DracoLazarus]

Yep. Such a major POD like Napoleon staying Republican probably butterflies 1848 absolutely.

As for the OP, I'd say that the question fundamentally depends on what Napoleon "staying Republican" actually means. Does he make himself a Dictator Perpetuus a la Caesar or Cromwell? Does he take the opposite tack, and step down eventually, possibly after Amiens, and if so does he retire completely or merely surrender political power and remain a general? Does he go somewhere in between, as Marius did historically and Putin is doing today, where he manipulates electoral results and relies on the army's loyalty to remain dominant while still technically holding regular elections?

I think the Putin solution is the closest thing to "staying Republican" Napoleon would go for if the Revolutionary spirit is understood as democracy instead of constitutionalism.

 

[Basileus_Komnenos]

As for the OP, I'd say that the question fundamentally depends on what Napoleon "staying Republican" actually means. Does he make himself a Dictator Perpetuus a la Caesar or Cromwell? Does he take the opposite tack, and step down eventually, possibly after Amiens, and if so does he retire completely or merely surrender political power and remain a general? Does he go somewhere in between, as Marius did historically and Putin is doing today, where he manipulates electoral results and relies on the army's loyalty to remain dominant while still technically holding regular elections?

I think he might be something akin to a lifelong dicator with the Bonaparte Family likely being a major force within France's government and society as a bit of pseudo-royalty ruling the government from behind the scense.

I think the Putin solution is the closest thing to "staying Republican" Napoleon would go for if the Revolutionary spirit is understood as democracy instead of constitutionalism.

Its very likely.

Though how do you see Europe reacting to him this way? How much could he realistically conquer? If the Habsburgs are destroyed, I can see him realistically conquer up to Central Europe. Though I can see the Austrian half of the Habsburg monarchy likely dismantled with the Habsburgs likely holding on to a rump state ruled from Hungary Hungary was actually quite loyal to the Habsburgs during this era and supported Kaiser Franz to the hilt.

Does he go somewhere in between, as Marius did historically and Putin is doing today, where he manipulates electoral results and relies on the army's loyalty to remain dominant while still technically holding regular elections?

Napoleon without trying was popular enough to win massive overwhelming landslides. Though this didn't stop him from rigging the ballots to make it even larger.

 

[Comte de Dordogne]

An analogy I will find amusing to make is to imagine Bonaparte as Gaddafi. A leader with a great deal of power who enjoys placing his whole family in the institutions and economic sectors of the country (Corsicans have a great sense of family).

 

[isabella]

You all have forgotten who Napoleon was already First Consul for life with the right of choose his successor before becoming Emperor? If he do not feel the need to make the last step, he will stop at that point

 

[Anarch King of Dipsodes]

If Napoleon remains First Consul of the Republic instead of Emperor...

Then does France support continue to support satellite republics and perhaps establish more?

If Napoleon is as successful as OTL, does he abolish the petty monarchies of Germany, the Kingdom of Prussia, the Empire of Austria, the Kingdom of Spain?

 

[DracoLazarus]

If Napoleon remains First Consul of the Republic instead of Emperor...

Then does France support continue to support satellite republics and perhaps establish more?

If Napoleon is as successful as OTL, does he abolish the petty monarchies of Germany, the Kingdom of Prussia, the Empire of Austria, the Kingdom of Spain?

Some of the petty monarchies were useful, and could keep serving as buffers. However, Prussia and Austria I would see being dismantled further.

 

[CastilloVerde]

If Napoleon never becomes Emperor, then Beethoven's Symphony no. 3 would remain dedicated to Napoleon. An interesting musical divergence.

 

[jessicajsscjs]

I have one question about this:

Do you guys believe it would be easier to achieve his objectives of French conquest of Europe by staying Republican or his choice of becoming a monarch was more in line with those objectives?

If he was going to say republican, the better way to capitalize this is going to be going full Trotsky and exporting the revolution Europe-wide, more intensively than the way he did OTL with the First French Empire.

 

[Basileus_Komnenos]

Do you guys believe it would be easier to achieve his objectives of French conquest of Europe by staying Republican or his choice of becoming a monarch was more in line with those objectives?

Well that depends honestly. While a good deal of Royalists defected to Napoleon in otl, there was a great deal of them who still supported the Bourbons. And then the more liberal elements of society were now pissed at him as well.

If he was going to say republican, the better way to capitalize this is going to be going full Trotsky and exporting the revolution Europe-wide, more intensively than the way he did OTL with the First French Empire.

That's what I was thinking as well. Though for something like this you'd have to have a scenario where the French Revolutionary government has a braincell, and doesn't let the navy rot in its harbors. If you give Napoleon something of a workable fleet, then you'd likely have him to gain more success. He'd probably be able to support some sort of Revolution in Ireland, and possibly even take more of Egypt. France prior to the Revolution had a Royal Navy just about on par with the UK's Royal Navy.

Then does France support continue to support satellite republics and perhaps establish more?

He probably does establish more. Though I think for example Austria would probably lose Czechia, Bohemia and possibly Galicia with the Habsburgs probably retreating to Hungary. Hungary probably loses Croatia which would rally the Hungarians more around the now King Franz.

The Prussians probably retreat to Konigsberg ruling basically a rump state in East Prussia as a vassal to the Tsar basically. Poland probably is liberated here and is a major ally and buffer Napoleon making Russia on high alert.

I wouldn't really be surprised if the Ottomans and Russia end up as strange bedfellows here in an alliance against the Revolutionary behemoth of France.

 

[DracoLazarus]

Well that depends honestly. While a good deal of Royalists defected to Napoleon in otl, there was a great deal of them who still supported the Bourbons. And then the more liberal elements of society were now pissed at him as well.


That's what I was thinking as well. Though for something like this you'd have to have a scenario where the French Revolutionary government has a braincell, and doesn't let the navy rot in its harbors. If you give Napoleon something of a workable fleet, then you'd likely have him to gain more success. He'd probably be able to support some sort of Revolution in Ireland, and possibly even take more of Egypt. France prior to the Revolution had a Royal Navy just about on par with the UK's Royal Navy.


He probably does establish more. Though I think for example Austria would probably lose Czechia, Bohemia and possibly Galicia with the Habsburgs probably retreating to Hungary. Hungary probably loses Croatia which would rally the Hungarians more around the now King Franz.

The Prussians probably retreat to Konigsberg ruling basically a rump state in East Prussia as a vassal to the Tsar basically. Poland probably is liberated here and is a major ally and buffer Napoleon making Russia on high alert.

I wouldn't really be surprised if the Ottomans and Russia end up as strange bedfellows here in an alliance against the Revolutionary behemoth of France.

Czechia is Bohemia and Moravia. Poland or Bohemia could wind up with Slovakia (Duchy of Nitra) as well.

 

[Basileus_Komnenos]

Czechia is Bohemia and Moravia. Poland or Bohemia could wind up with Slovakia (Duchy of Nitra) as well.

I don't think Napoleon would want to have Poland "too big" such that it could eventually buck France's hegemony, or potentially rival France itself.

 

[jessicajsscjs]

Well that depends honestly. While a good deal of Royalists defected to Napoleon in otl, there was a great deal of them who still supported the Bourbons. And then the more liberal elements of society were now pissed at him as well.


That's what I was thinking as well. Though for something like this you'd have to have a scenario where the French Revolutionary government has a braincell, and doesn't let the navy rot in its harbors. If you give Napoleon something of a workable fleet, then you'd likely have him to gain more success. He'd probably be able to support some sort of Revolution in Ireland, and possibly even take more of Egypt. France prior to the Revolution had a Royal Navy just about on par with the UK's Royal Navy.


He probably does establish more. Though I think for example Austria would probably lose Czechia, Bohemia and possibly Galicia with the Habsburgs probably retreating to Hungary. Hungary probably loses Croatia which would rally the Hungarians more around the now King Franz.

The Prussians probably retreat to Konigsberg ruling basically a rump state in East Prussia as a vassal to the Tsar basically. Poland probably is liberated here and is a major ally and buffer Napoleon making Russia on high alert.

I wouldn't really be surprised if the Ottomans and Russia end up as strange bedfellows here in an alliance against the Revolutionary behemoth of France.

What about Russia? Would a Republican Napoleon try to release the serfs and create a class war in the Russian Empire?

 

[Basileus_Komnenos]

What about Russia? Would a Republican Napoleon try to release the serfs and create a class war in the Russian Empire?

Napoleon could try.

But tbh Russian peasants were pretty loyal to the Tsar. The Russian Orthodox Church in otl basically cast Napoleon as the incarnation of the Antichrist during his invasion of Russia.

 

[HIM Dogson]

What about Russia? Would a Republican Napoleon try to release the serfs and create a class war in the Russian Empire?

I've talked about this before, but this plan wouldn't work for several reasons. Primarily the French army was supplied by living off the land, which meant that anywhere they invaded they'd be stealing food from the local peasantry. I doubt a Russian peasant would appreciate being told 'you're no longer a serf! Also give us enough food to, literally, feed a small army.' Additionally turning the invasion of Russia into a class war would have made the war existential for the Russian nobility. OTL the Russian war effort almost collapsed because the nobility were unwilling to endure the sacrifices and loss of territory demanded by Alexander and Barclay's plan, but you can bet that they'd be a lot more willing to fall in line if the very basis of their power and privilege was threatened, rather than just their country's ability to trade with Britain. Napoleon starting a class war would have meant his win condition would have changed to the total subjugation of Russia. So I think even a Republican Napoleon would have out of necessity kept the Russian Empire as a monarchical state, simply because imposing a Republic on it would have been impossible.

 

[Basileus_Komnenos]

I've talked about this before, but this plan wouldn't work for several reasons. Primarily the French army was supplied by living off the land, which meant that anywhere they invaded they'd be stealing food from the local peasantry. I doubt a Russian peasant would appreciate being told 'you're no longer a serf! Also give us enough food to, literally, feed a small army.' Additionally turning the invasion of Russia into a class war would have made the war existential for the Russian nobility. OTL the Russian war effort almost collapsed because the nobility were unwilling to endure the sacrifices and loss of territory demanded by Alexander and Barclay's plan, but you can bet that they'd be a lot more willing to fall in line if the very basis of their power and privilege was threatened, rather than just their country's ability to trade with Britain. Napoleon starting a class war would have meant his win condition would have changed to the total subjugation of Russia. So I think even a Republican Napoleon would have out of necessity kept the Russian Empire as a monarchical state, simply because imposing a Republic on it would have been impossible.

How do you think Scandinavia would be affected?

I'm thinking that Denmark likely would be invaded by Napoleon, though as for Sweden and Norway, I'm not sure what happens to them.

 

[jessicajsscjs]

I've talked about this before, but this plan wouldn't work for several reasons. Primarily the French army was supplied by living off the land, which meant that anywhere they invaded they'd be stealing food from the local peasantry. I doubt a Russian peasant would appreciate being told 'you're no longer a serf! Also give us enough food to, literally, feed a small army.' Additionally turning the invasion of Russia into a class war would have made the war existential for the Russian nobility. OTL the Russian war effort almost collapsed because the nobility were unwilling to endure the sacrifices and loss of territory demanded by Alexander and Barclay's plan, but you can bet that they'd be a lot more willing to fall in line if the very basis of their power and privilege was threatened, rather than just their country's ability to trade with Britain. Napoleon starting a class war would have meant his win condition would have changed to the total subjugation of Russia. So I think even a Republican Napoleon would have out of necessity kept the Russian Empire as a monarchical state, simply because imposing a Republic on it would have been impossible.

What if he goes for a multi-year campaign? Trying to destroy Russia piecemeal?