WI: What if Viking expansion took them all the way to West Africa, establishing trade routes btw West Africa and Europe through the Atlantic by 1000

Basically why it says in the title.

There were Viking raids as far south as Morocco where according to the records, they captured a ton of people. Moors traded with both Ireland and the Sahel so they could get the idea of greater wealth further south and maybe even how to get around the Cape Bojador, if not, I think knowledge passed through Moor traders or just simple Viking expansion do it well. If not, they could occupy Bojador as one of the overland stops between them and Takrur.

As for the people that would say that their boats couldn't do it, I'll point to their voyage to North America and evidence for periods of their occupation in the Azores but also, this quote from an askhistorians thread.
 
The trip from Morocco down to the Sahel is terrible and goes past some of the most lifeless coasts on earth. The prevailing winds would be good for travelling south, going back north would be much more difficult. If you can get some kind of settlement going on the Canaries, it'll help a bit. Maybe Kapp Verde as well.
 
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The trip from Morocco down to the Sahel is terrible and goes past some of the most lifeless coasts on earth. The prevailing winds would be good for travelling south, going back north would be much more difficult. If you can get some kind of settlement going on the Canaries, it'll help a bit. Maybe Kapp Verde as well.
The argument is made from rat and cow DNA that the Vikings reached the Azores.

So I don't think reaching the Canaries and Bojador town would be an issue as the later can be seen from the coast.

Cape Verde tho, would be more of an issue as the archepelago cannot be seen from the mainland, but maybe it is close enough that some blown out sailor that can find his way back would discover it. If they could find the Americas, Iceland and Greenland with no easily observable islands between, they may be able to do this too.


(Obvious Caveat that the Equatorial Atlantic isn't the same as the Northern Seas)
 
The argument is made from rat and cow DNA that the Vikings reached the Azores.

So I don't think reaching the Canaries and Bojador town would be an issue as the later can be seen from the coast.

Cape Verde tho, would be more of an issue as the archepelago cannot be seen from the mainland, but maybe it is close enough that some blown out sailor that can find his way back would discover it. If they could find the Americas, Iceland and Greenland with no easily observable islands between, they may be able to do this too.


(Obvious Caveat that the Equatorial Atlantic isn't the same as the Northern Seas)
Prevailing winds generally run southwards down the coast then turn west. Canary current does that too. Cape Verde is about where the winds will blow you from that part of the African coast. It was prosperous during the slave trade days because it was a natural stop. I think getting back is the big challenge, you'd be looking at a long trip against the prevailing winds and current, with a desiccated coastline the only available land.

Probably be easier to get to South America from there than back to Europe.
 
Prevailing winds generally run southwards down the coast then turn west. Canary current does that too. Cape Verde is about where the winds will blow you from that part of the African coast. It was prosperous during the slave trade days because it was a natural stop. I think getting back is the big challenge, you'd be looking at a long trip against the prevailing winds and current, with a desiccated coastline the only available land.

Probably be easier to get to South America from there than back to Europe.
Okay, so the winds are definitely an issue.

Are the currents also strong enough that a band of men rowing a long boat with sails down won't be able to row against it?
 
Okay, so the winds are definitely an issue.

Are the currents also strong enough that a band of men rowing a long boat with sails down won't be able to row against it?
I don't think so. But it will add to the effort needed. Although I think you can avoid a lot of the current issues by skirting close to land, but that has its own issues, in terms of shallows, rocks, being driven towards the shore by weather, etc. Especially with a coast as bleak as this, where picking up water won't be an option. A bunch of Nordics exerting themselves off the coast of Africa will also need a lot of water.

This TL will have a lot of stories of ghosts, flying dutchmen, Draugr, and ships made of dead mens nails.

Monsoon seasonal changes won't help there either, but I notice that all the wind patters mean its easy to get to the Sahel/Gold coast areas by sailing a bit southeast, and back by going slightly northwest. Really, really easy. Around this time, the area was one of the most population dense on earth, and hosted mighty kingdoms and grotesque amounts of gold.

I think you are going to see the focus shift away from Europe quite rapidly, unless you have a fairly zealous conversion to Christianity. Some kind of syncretic Æsir/muslim religon would be more interesting though. Europe is poor, far away and a dangerous journey away. Although you would have a very good exchange rate on gold, so for young bucks or the desperate it could be an option.

The result would either be the Norse keeping their navigation and sailing to themselves and working as a sort of Hansa/Garamantes/Sea peoples to the Sahel kingdoms, and whatever was south of them. Or them blending in and transferring their shipping tech.
 
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Okay, so the winds are definitely an issue.

Are the currents also strong enough that a band of men rowing a long boat with sails down won't be able to row against it?
VoltaDoMar.jpg


Not a direct answer, but this gives a bit more insight as to the nature of the region in question.
For centuries Cape Bojador has been known as one of the navigable world's most treacherous places. The British Royal Navy's Africa Pilot, warns that the charting of this coast is "reported to be inaccurate" to this day. The cape lies at the base of a narrow strait, where the Canary Islands form a funnel that squeezes the south-flowing current hard against the Moroccan coast in a frenzy of wind, whitecaps, and fatal shoals. There the Sahara abuts the sea in a mutable front of dun-colored cliffs and shifting walls of sand. The cape's rocky beaches collect ships the way a spider's web traps flies.

To an American sailor of 1815, the vast desert region beyond those bluffs was as alien and unexplored as Antarctica. Mariners knew that shipwrecked Christian sailors who refused to disarm on this coast were treated brutally by the Arabs and often slaughtered to the man, and some believed that the inhabitants were cannibals. The prospect of wrecking on this hostile shore had left strong men utterly undone. In 1784, when the French ship Les Deux Amies grounded near Cape Blanco, its captain became so distraught that he tried to blow up the ship's powder magazine. When stopped, he put two bullets in his throat.
From https://web.archive.org/web/2015123...algeographic.com/adventure/0402/excerpt2.html

To summarize, the narrow strait, rough current, dangerous reefs, hostile natives, and so forth were so dangerous that it was rumored to be haunted by sea monsters and was still considered a brutal region centuries after the Viking age. Regardless if Vikings could survive the trip south, the return trip is a major issue, since it took the Portuguese centuries longer to find and master the volta do mar, and there's just so much more out there that didn't require quite the same level of risk.

The Portuguese also had the incentive of not having actual easy access to the Mediterranean and being the furthest away from the trade in the Levant that bridged China, India, and Europe (and thus getting screwed over by the Italian merchant states), so they were stuck with either languish on the edge of the main trade routes or forge ahead and find new trade routes that hopefully didn't exclude them. The Vikings could just raid Italy, the Byzantine Empire, the Levant, etc. for much more guaranteed returns than a trip down one of the known world's deadliest sea routes.

Corrientes-oceanicas.png

The Vikings going towards the Vinland had the benefit of the currents assisting that route and stops along the way. And that trip was apparently an accident that was made along an already known route along one of those east-to-west currents. A trip to the father of danger and beyond and then back doesn't have quite the same knowledge bank yet.

The main question to answer is "Why risk everything when there's far safer places to raid and conquer? Why spend the time and resources towards finding the optimal currents for the return trip if there's other places known to be rich and conquerable right now?" And then the other would be, "if the route was known to Moorish sailors and was reliable to journey across, why did the Trans-Saharan trade routes focus on crossing the deserts instead of going by sea, which is faster?"
 
The main question to answer is "Why risk everything when there's far safer places to raid and conquer? Why spend the time and resources towards finding the optimal currents for the return trip if there's other places known to be rich and conquerable right now?"
I mean, this could easily be answered by the great wealth to be gotten at the source of trade Moorish gold trade and prestige in raiding or conquering at the end of the world.

This certainly I would say is a plausible explanation given the massive raid(or maybe conquest attempt?) launched by Ingvar the far travelled on Tabaristan.

And then the other would be, "if the route was known to Moorish sailors and was reliable to journey across, why did the Trans-Saharan trade routes focus on crossing the deserts instead of going by sea, which is faster?"
I would say, they already had a secure route that the Vikings did not.

_-:noexpression::noexpression::noexpression::noexpression::noexpression::noexpression::noexpression::noexpression:--_

Anyways, it would seem to me that what would differentiate Portugal and Carthage from some roudy Viking bunch would be state backing and state accumulation of knowledge and wealth, however, some Moorish sailor that knows the general route but avoids it due to the danger could always be the one to show them the way the first time.
 
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The quick answer is no.

The Vikings could probably sail down to West Africa, and possibly did but its marginal for sailing and I will come onto the trade in a bit.

The Vikings have knarr as the longish range cargo vessel. This is a 50 ton ship with maybe 24 ton cargo capacity and of that cargo capacity a proportion has to be set aside for the crew's food and water. The further from a base you go the more feed and particularly water you have to carry. Water is easy in Northern Europe there are rivers everywhere. Now these could do very long voyages and carry enough people, livestock to colonise Greenland. But so what. For most purposes you can get what you want without long oceanic voyages. To give an idea the medieval reckoning was one crew per 10 tons burden, so a 50 ton ship is 5 crew, but if one gets sick dies, or is not able to work the ship then becomes unmanageable so probably several more


You could argue that the cog is a bigger knarr but then you have maybe a 200 ton vessel with a 45 man crew which is not a lot of space for long distance voyages.

To establish trade network though requires trade goods. The really distinguishing factor for the Age of Exploration is they had certain knowledge of two things. There was a spice trade in the east and you could make an absolute fuckton of money with a spice cargo. And in terms of the Atlantic trade the payoff is Gold and Silver from the Indies and sugar, tobacco and other agricultural products from the Americas. Everything else is about how do we get to the known payoff, that makes it worthwhile for the much richer late medieval states to speculate on long distance voyages in that direction (and they are already doing long distance voyages between say Portugal and England/Hanse/Baltic and the Cod grounds anyway) The Vikings have no such knowledge. They can get what they want in terms of trade or land much closer to home most of the time and putting lots of resources in men and ships into unprofitable voyages just makes the small state weaker compared to its local enemies.
 
The quick answer is no.

The Vikings could probably sail down to West Africa, and possibly did but its marginal for sailing and I will come onto the trade in a bit.

The Vikings have knarr as the longish range cargo vessel. This is a 50 ton ship with maybe 24 ton cargo capacity and of that cargo capacity a proportion has to be set aside for the crew's food and water. The further from a base you go the more feed and particularly water you have to carry. Water is easy in Northern Europe there are rivers everywhere. Now these could do very long voyages and carry enough people, livestock to colonise Greenland. But so what. For most purposes you can get what you want without long oceanic voyages. To give an idea the medieval reckoning was one crew per 10 tons burden, so a 50 ton ship is 5 crew, but if one gets sick dies, or is not able to work the ship then becomes unmanageable so probably several more


You could argue that the cog is a bigger knarr but then you have maybe a 200 ton vessel with a 45 man crew which is not a lot of space for long distance voyages.

To establish trade network though requires trade goods. The really distinguishing factor for the Age of Exploration is they had certain knowledge of two things. There was a spice trade in the east and you could make an absolute fuckton of money with a spice cargo. And in terms of the Atlantic trade the payoff is Gold and Silver from the Indies and sugar, tobacco and other agricultural products from the Americas. Everything else is about how do we get to the known payoff, that makes it worthwhile for the much richer late medieval states to speculate on long distance voyages in that direction (and they are already doing long distance voyages between say Portugal and England/Hanse/Baltic and the Cod grounds anyway) The Vikings have no such knowledge. They can get what they want in terms of trade or land much closer to home most of the time and putting lots of resources in men and ships into unprofitable voyages just makes the small state weaker compared to its local enemies.
The issue of a spot to retake food and water for the crew is an issue but one that I think can be solved by a take over of a stop in the Azores, Canaries and/or some island off the coast if Portugal. We have good evidence for a stop at Azores by the Vikings so the rest of these aren't out of question. After this, if they can and do make the the journey past the Bojador cape, the strong currents would certainly push them along even faster than normal and trading with close to coast Oasis settlements like Dahkla will be enough. These settlements could resupply thousands strong Trans-Saharan settlements, even a less used one like Dahkla can support 5 to 50 people's resupply.

As for how they'll find out about it, the Moors certainly knew of it and we have a record of a major Viking raid on Morocco, with even some people ransomed back. Apparently mant of the captured were Black, so whose's to say they can't get the info from some Moor or Soninke/Sanhaja captive that promises a random in exchange for being returned back to the Sahel directly?.

As "for the Vikings can get what they want whether trade or land much closer to home" well, that didn't stop expeditions to Tabaristan or Greenland which are similar far and treacherous comparable to Scandenavia to the coast of the Sahel. What's to stop someone in a similar state to Ingvar or Lief Erikson based in Ireland, Azores or some alt-Portuguese coast from trying to do the same?.
 
The issue of a spot to retake food and water for the crew is an issue but one that I think can be solved by a take over of a stop in the Azores, Canaries and/or some island off the coast if Portugal. We have good evidence for a stop at Azores by the Vikings so the rest of these aren't out of question. After this, if they can and do make the the journey past the Bojador cape, the strong currents would certainly push them along even faster than normal and trading with close to coast Oasis settlements like Dahkla will be enough. These settlements could resupply thousands strong Trans-Saharan settlements, even a less used one like Dahkla can support 5 to 50 people's resupply.

As for how they'll find out about it, the Moors certainly knew of it and we have a record of a major Viking raid on Morocco, with even some people ransomed back. Apparently mant of the captured were Black, so whose's to say they can't get the info from some Moor or Soninke/Sanhaja captive that promises a random in exchange for being returned back to the Sahel directly?.

As "for the Vikings can get what they want whether trade or land much closer to home" well, that didn't stop expeditions to Tabaristan or Greenland which are similar far and treacherous comparable to Scandenavia to the coast of the Sahel. What's to stop someone in a similar state to Ingvar or Lief Erikson based in Ireland, Azores or some alt-Portuguese coast from trying to do the same?.

The Moors knew of what? the location of the Molluccas and the price of cloves? Look I would agree the Vikings could push out to the Canaries for sure the Azores, maybe, the issue is not whether you can get there but how consistently you can manage it and how sustainable the planted colony is. But pushing on, whats there? For the Portuguese and Dutch and English its holds full of cloves and riches beyond imagination.

For the supposed Vikings its just another horizon. If you want land far easier to go to Yorkshire or Ireland kill the men, take the women drink the mead send home for the wife and kids next summer. Grounds cleared and probably planted.
 
The Moors knew of what? the location of the Molluccas and the price of cloves?
Gold in the Sahel. Takrur and Mali both traded it and both States had a coastline. This is the main reason I was talking of trade route, not settlement.

(There are other stuff like fruits/seeds of paradise, Sugar, dates, Synsepalum dulcificum etc would also exist but what mainly drove the Trans-Saharan trade and what the Berbers would know we'll of is the Gold).
 
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I mean, this could easily be answered by the great wealth to be gotten at the source of trade Moorish gold trade and prestige in raiding or conquering at the end of the world.

This certainly I would say is a plausible explanation given the massive raid(or maybe conquest attempt?) launched by Ingvar the far travelled on Tabaristan.


I would say, they already had a secure route that the Vikings did not.

_-:noexpression::noexpression::noexpression::noexpression::noexpression::noexpression::noexpression::noexpression:--_

Anyways, it would seem to me that what would differentiate Portugal and Carthage from some roudy Viking bunch would be state backing and state accumulation of knowledge and wealth, however, some Moorish sailor that knows the general route but avoids it due to the danger could always be the one to show them the way the first time.
Which route was this? I'm not aware of any routes, aside from the claimed Phoenician expeditions, and those are both dubious and so long before the time period that, even if they did happen, knowledge of the journey and the techniques and timings needed were likely lost. Again, if there was a reliable sea route, the Trans-Saharan wouldn't have been the primary route for trade (and OTL Portuguese naval efforts did end up diminishing the desert trade noticeably).

The Wikipedia article you cited regarding Ingvar mentions that "The expedition probably aimed to reopen old trade-routes after the Volga Bulgars and the Khazars no longer proved obstacles," so it wasn't a case of the unknown like with going from Iberia to West Africa. Also they all died and that particular expedition was not attempted again, despite resupply being far easier on this route than the Bojador route since it's almost entirely inland. A single major failure is all it took to kill ambitions of reopening a lucrative trade route that had already existed, I can't imagine ambitions of creating a potentially lucrative trade route that never existed would survive, especially when there's already trade happening along a different route.

And regarding Iceland, Greenland, and Vinland, those appear to have been the results of accidents involving exiles (criminals or those seeking to contest an inheritance) getting caught in storms or missing known ports and getting washed to stranger shores that happened to have easy return routes.

As for resupply, Chaunu apparently wrote:
"At twenty seven degrees north, Cape Bojador is already in the Sahara, so there could be no support from the coast. The Cape is 800 kilometres from the River Sous; the round trip of 1,600 kilometres was just within reach of a galley, but it was impossible to go any further without sources fresh water, except by sail. In addition there were the difficulties [of] the strong current from the Canaries, persistent mists, of the sea bed, and above all the impossibility of coming back by the same route close hauled."
From https://books.google.com/books?id=n...6BAhHEAM#v=onepage&q="chaunu" bojador&f=false.

On a side note, the evidence for Vikings in the Azores is also not exactly fantastic: mice and sediment. The Vikings had no records of the region, which is unlike them when it came to telling their naval exploits in their sagas, and there are no Viking burial grounds.

Gold in the Sahel. Takrur and Mali both traded it and both States had a coastline. This is the main reason I was talking of trade route, not settlement.

(There are other stuff like fruits/seeds of paradise, Sugar, dates, Synsepalum dulcificum etc would also exist but what mainly drove the Trans-Saharan trade and what the Berbers would know we'll of is the Gold).
And those were already being traded along an established trade route. There needs to be enough of a financial benefit (not having access to the route due to hostile states for example, like the Spanish were after taking over Granada and getting cut off from the Trans-Saharan trade, or Portugal being on the wrong side of Iberia for Mediterranean trade) to fund such an expedition. Personal ambition is sufficient for a one off, sure, but it took over a decade for the Portuguese to figure out the currents and winds once they began in earnest in the 15th century, with compasses, nautical charts, and other navigational tools and naval innovations. Plus constant royal funding. I hate to keep harping on this one, but the Vikings have better regions to raid that are not going to take years to see returns on. And, as with Tabaristan, a single failure is enough to sour interest in the whole venture when there's easier prey. Again, Tabaristan was reopening an older trade route that was known already, Ice/Green/Vinland were accidents that happened from being blown off course going to Norway/Ice/Greenland. West Africa and back is going to the unknown without the aid of currents (not to mention the shallows, treacherous reefs, winds, and lack of water). That's a voyage that's magnitudes harsher and less survivable than Tabaristan and Greenland.
 
You can sail pretty much anywhere, but can you do it consistently. You would have a lot more lost boats unless you somehow acquired better sailing technology. A few boats getting to the edges is not enough. If the vikings can get to the Indian Ocean, they could possibly get multisailed ships from the Austronesians.
 
The thing about the Azores becoming a critical base for further adventures south is this: even if we suppose there were Norse excursions, why would they turn it into a way station? It isn’t on any known trade routes for them, and is in fact on practically on the edge of their world. It would be hard to populate consistently. As has been pointed out, colonized places like Iceland and Greenland were relatively easy to access and settled often by refugees/exiles/freebooters. The Azores are way too far flung when a man could just go to Iceland for the exact same reasons. The establishment of an Azores colony would take multiple sustained trips for initially little to no benefit at all. It would require the Norse to have the grand strategic picture that it could become a base to go further south, but the incentives for that to be realized aren’t really there.
 
The thing about the Azores becoming a critical base for further adventures south is this: even if we suppose there were Norse excursions, why would they turn it into a way station? It isn’t on any known trade routes for them, and is in fact on practically on the edge of their world. It would be hard to populate consistently. As has been pointed out, colonized places like Iceland and Greenland were relatively easy to access and settled often by refugees/exiles/freebooters. The Azores are way too far flung when a man could just go to Iceland for the exact same reasons. The establishment of an Azores colony would take multiple sustained trips for initially little to no benefit at all. It would require the Norse to have the grand strategic picture that it could become a base to go further south, but the incentives for that to be realized aren’t really there.
Well the Vikings got a lot of use out of Scottish/Orkney/Faroese type islands that were unsettled or very sparsely settled, then used as bases by the "sea-kings" who raided Ireland, Britain, and Continental Europe.

In the Atlantic Iberia area, the Azores, Madeira or Canary Islands are the closest thing to that. So they don't need a grand strategic picture to consider settling them, it fits in their existing tactic.

But the trip is more difficult than in the North Sea. To make it viable, there would have to be another Normandy in Iberia, perhaps Asturias or a coastal strip in northern Portugal.
 
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