World War II: Arctic Exchange?

ArmchairSamurai · Sep 8, 2017

After my foray into numerous World War II alternative scenarios, researching buried information and compiling what all I could find of use, it became obvious that Germany and Japan's token exchanges via submarine was less than ideal given the extremely long & hazardous voyage between them. Considering icebreakers were not a new concept (plus as far as I know Germany did have "at least" one, KMS Externsine), is it plausible Germany could have launched a small fleet of icebreakers to escort such U-boats across the ice sheets of the Arctic Ocean, through the Bering Strait to Japan?

I am aware the Soviet VMF (or Red Fleet) was quite active in the Arctic (among other things), despite its underwhelming achievements compared to the RN or USN, though I do not know to what extent. I would appreciate anything y'all can offer on that matter. Additionally I can say the USN increased their presence around Alaska after the Japanese occupation of Attu / Kiska and the subsequent bombing of Dutch Harbor however for discussion's sake, lets leave this irrelevant for now.

What are my options?

jsb · Sep 9, 2017

Pre German invasion of USSR did they not send ships to Japan via Soviet territorial waters using Soviet icebreakers? After that its gets a 'bit' harder as anything more than a single blockade runner will attract a lot of attention from RN/USN who can deploy much more force to ether end at will.

The Gunslinger · Sep 9, 2017

They've get a very narrow window for operation there in mostly uncharted waters. Once the British realize what's happening they'll start monitoring both ends. The trip would be a death sentence for everyone involved.

Michele · Sep 9, 2017

Don't worry about the Red Fleet. Worry about the ice, the VVS, and especially the USAAF at Marks Airfield (Nome). The Bering Strait is only some 90 kms across.

jsb said:
Pre German invasion of USSR did they not send ships to Japan via Soviet territorial waters using Soviet icebreakers?

They did send one ship, not for trade with Japan but as an auxiliary cruiser, the Komet. The Soviet icebreakers' assistance was essential - and this in late August.

DrakonFin · Sep 9, 2017

Michele said:
Don't worry about the Red Fleet. Worry about the ice, the VVS, and especially the USAAF at Marks Airfield (Nome). The Bering Strait is only some 90 kms across.

They did send one ship, not for trade with Japan but as an auxiliary cruiser, the Komet. The Soviet icebreakers' assistance was essential - and this in late August.

The wartime winters were also colder than average, so the window of opportunity would be very small anyway.

If the Germans somehow built a number of icebreakers during the war, IMHO they'd be much more realistically useful on the Baltic for helping the Swedish iron ore trade and as aid in carrying military and civilian goods to Finland (and wood, paper, etc, from Finland to Germany) than in any pie-in-the-sky plans in the Arctic Sea.

thaddeus · Sep 9, 2017

my understanding it was feasible only two months of the year. the original (grandiose) plan during German-Soviet cooperation was for a number of German ships to make the passage and serve as transports on return from Pacific.

the advantages were shortened trip and clandestine aspect, disadvantage was ice and weather conditions. seems impossible without Soviet aid, possibly if they had been using Northern Sea Route for several years they could have been able to navigate on their own.

Dathi THorfinnsson · Sep 9, 2017

Totally silly thought.

Take a long range Uboot. Replace half the diesel tanks with liquid oxygen tanks. Send said Uboot under the polar icecap from Tromso Norway to Attu or Kiska in the Aleutians. Refuel there (mostly with diesel) and continue on to japan with your cargo.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=tos-adk&DU=mi&SU=mph
shows a distance from Tromso to Adak of 4017 (statute) miles. Now, obviously, the real route would be longer, having to go through the Bering Strait, and then angling west to the Japanese held islands.

But some Uboots got up to 12000nm range, so cutting that in half (half diesel, half oxygen), should still allow such a mission.

Yes, yes, replacing diesel tanks with liquid oxygen tanks and making the oxygen stay liquid is a non-trivial task.

But. It SHOULD be theoretically possible.

RamscoopRaider · Sep 9, 2017

Dathi THorfinnsson said:
Totally silly thought.

Take a long range Uboot. Replace half the diesel tanks with liquid oxygen tanks. Send said Uboot under the polar icecap from Tromso Norway to Attu or Kiska in the Aleutians. Refuel there (mostly with diesel) and continue on to japan with your cargo.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=tos-adk&DU=mi&SU=mph
shows a distance from Tromso to Adak of 4017 (statute) miles. Now, obviously, the real route would be longer, having to go through the Bering Strait, and then angling west to the Japanese held islands.

But some Uboots got up to 12000nm range, so cutting that in half (half diesel, half oxygen), should still allow such a mission.

Yes, yes, replacing diesel tanks with liquid oxygen tanks and making the oxygen stay liquid is a non-trivial task.

But. It SHOULD be theoretically possible.

There was an attempt to reach the North Pole by submarine in 1931, admittedly using an air drill rather than LOX, it had to turn back after severe damage from ice by 82 North, and was scuttled rather than returned to the USN, so practical experience suggests it is a bad idea

jsb · Sep 9, 2017

Dathi THorfinnsson said:
Take a long range Uboot. Replace half the diesel tanks with liquid oxygen tanks. Send said Uboot under the polar icecap from Tromso Norway to Attu or Kiska in the Aleutians. Refuel there (mostly with diesel) and continue on to japan with your cargo....Yes, yes, replacing diesel tanks with liquid oxygen tanks and making the oxygen stay liquid is a non-trivial task.

If you have that ability I don't think you need to use it.... Liquid Oxygen U boats implies very bad things for the RN so they might win the war or at lest force a peace?

Draconis · Sep 9, 2017

Dathi THorfinnsson said:
Totally silly thought.

Take a long range Uboot. Replace half the diesel tanks with liquid oxygen tanks. Send said Uboot under the polar icecap from Tromso Norway to Attu or Kiska in the Aleutians. Refuel there (mostly with diesel) and continue on to japan with your cargo.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=tos-adk&DU=mi&SU=mph
shows a distance from Tromso to Adak of 4017 (statute) miles. Now, obviously, the real route would be longer, having to go through the Bering Strait, and then angling west to the Japanese held islands.

But some Uboots got up to 12000nm range, so cutting that in half (half diesel, half oxygen), should still allow such a mission.

Yes, yes, replacing diesel tanks with liquid oxygen tanks and making the oxygen stay liquid is a non-trivial task.

But. It SHOULD be theoretically possible.

Navigation? Keeping in mind the unreliability of magnetic compasses at those latitudes. When the US Navy sent the Nautilus to the North pole that submarine had an inertial navigation system.

thaddeus · Sep 11, 2017

there was German attempt to establish air link, the problems being no suitable aircraft and Japanese fear of overflights of Soviets.

if the ME-261 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_261 had been further developed? probably still need Japan to be involved in hostilities with USSR? (1,000 miles closer flight to Northern Sakhalin island, which one can assume they could have captured)

to the point about Arctic route, the Germans had weather station on Alexandra Land (ill fated IOTL) however flight from there to Sakhalin are approx 2,600 miles.