Wrapped in Flames: The Great American War and Beyond

[Nightstorm86]

But of course, an unambiguous defeat means that they aren't super exciting at the thought of picking another fight with Britain too...

Not directly but what has been shown with the fenians the us will be more than happy stoking and arming dissenters in Britain's empire and will happily give Britain a death by a thousand cuts like what they did to America's other parent France. Oh Britain you basically made another france from your eldest by joining the war.

So likely no upfront wars but proxy wars are gonna be an almost inevitable with how revanchist and how hard time the USA is gonna have. and it was the democrats who supplied the fenians this time who knows what the radicals might do next time

 

[PaulJones202718]

So we have a slightly angrier Union and the Tammany Nietzsche that they blame for getting them there. Only he can fix it will be the battle cry of a lot of New Men.

 

[Nightstorm86]

Also question about the Chinese situation in the west coast what's going on with them hopefully in there future is brighter than before cause without the south I think we can stop the Chinese exclusion act cause the south is gone and I think the USA are gonna need the Chinese manpower for the transcontinental railway which I hope is successful. But I'll just hope that there fate is better than otl cause that was depressing.

Also is there a map for the new borders again cause I want to see it.

 

[DarkAvenger]

I believe he said that the map will be out showing 1870. Also, my guesses on the Cursed Amendment are wrong, huh?

As for the proxy wars mentioned above, what proxy wars? Is the US going to support a second Indian Mutiny? The idea of the US doing this is pretty far-fetched.

Also EC, I know you will not cover this too deeply, but is Burma going to be different? The Third Anglo-Burmese War started because the Burmese were negotiating with France for a political alliance and military equipment as part of an attempt to modernize the country. A lesson I took at university stated that the reason Burma is what it became today was that the British tried ruling it using the Indian princely states system when Burma had an entirely different political model based on the mandala system, and this led to the territorialization of its inhabitants like Burmese land, Shan land, Karen land and so on, which led to what I can best describe as a form of 'state sovereignty' based on ethnic lines. Then the 1947 Panglong Agreement did not work out as intended (it promised state sovereignty but the Burmese government did not grant that as Aung San, the founder of independent Burma, was assassinated) and eventually led to internal problems like insurgents from ethnic minorities like the Shan fighting against the Burmese and other groups.

This is just the short version and there are many more factors involved but it is a basic idea of the internal divisions of Burma that are still felt today. I'm just wondering if Burma would have a better fate than OTL. Would it be conquered here or not? With Britain a bit more worried about France, I believe it could still meet the same fate assuming that France's Foreign Minister or someone else told them about the negotiations or that Burma would seek an alliance with France ITTL.

 

[Nightstorm86]

I was thinking of the first boer war In that the boers have better victory and are more supplied and give Britain a much bloody nose. but I understand if that's a bit ahead and relations could have could have soften but I doubt it.
The above part was mostly speculation on my part not really anything related to real events that could happen.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

Not directly but what has been shown with the fenians the us will be more than happy stoking and arming dissenters in Britain's empire and will happily give Britain a death by a thousand cuts like what they did to America's other parent France. Oh Britain you basically made another france from your eldest by joining the war.

So likely no upfront wars but proxy wars are gonna be an almost inevitable with how revanchist and how hard time the USA is gonna have. and it was the democrats who supplied the fenians this time who knows what the radicals might do next time

There's far more room for proxy conflicts than direct confrontation. There are those who in Canada will be disgruntled, but many of them happen to also be the sorts that the US either dislikes on principle, or would be unwilling to normally aid. The Cree and the Metis come immediately to mind, and the US will be reluctant to directly arm them in favor of hurting Canada. They might do it on the sly (IE Americans willing to sell arms and ammunition) but that would be less "government policy" and more "angry Americans" which is another case for conflict.

Also question about the Chinese situation in the west coast what's going on with them hopefully in there future is brighter than before cause without the south I think we can stop the Chinese exclusion act cause the south is gone and I think the USA are gonna need the Chinese manpower for the transcontinental railway which I hope is successful. But I'll just hope that there fate is better than otl cause that was depressing.

Well, reading a few histories of the Transcontinental Railroad at the moment and its all a little bleak. California, for many labor and racist reasons, wanted the Chinese OUT as soon as they weren't needed. The fear of the "Yellow Horde" is still very real, but a very Pacific driven concern. It's going to be a local sticking point for a while. Especially as China is still going to be reeling from its change of government and local disasters well into the 1870s with all the chaos from the fall of the Qing dynasty in favor of the new dynasty.

Long term, better prospects that say how it took until almost the modern day for Chinese acceptance. Short term, less so.

Also is there a map for the new borders again cause I want to see it.

I am still plugging away. Alas life keeps me busy and I'm used to MS paint, but currently working with Google. I'd have to boot up my old dinosaur laptop to try it, and maybe I'll have a bit more time in the near future. I do want to put an 1866 map out, but 1872 is the latest I am willing to wait to show a world map.

I was thinking of the first boer war In that the boers have better victory and are more supplied and give Britain a much bloody nose. but I understand if that's a bit ahead and relations could have could have soften but I doubt it.
The above part was mostly speculation on my part not really anything related to real events that could happen.

I was toying with the Boers being somehow American proxies, but that's a bit far off. There's an interesting African war I've got planned around that time though. The 1890s are the second most exciting decade post 1860s.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

So we have a slightly angrier Union and the Tammany Nietzsche that they blame for getting them there. Only he can fix it will be the battle cry of a lot of New Men.

Oh a much angrier Union, though the Tammany Nietzsche is an interesting phrase. You might be on to something for one of the 1868 frontrunners.

 

[Nenshou Yuuki]

I mean if the Union wants to play at proxy wars Britain has been doing that sort of thing for longer and against bigger powers, and will have far less reservations about arming Natives. Depending on how things shake up with Western states Britain might try stiring up trouble there.

 

[Athelstane]

There are those who in Canada will be disgruntled, but many of them happen to also be the sorts that the US either dislikes on principle, or would be unwilling to normally aid. The Cree and the Metis come immediately to mind, and the US will be reluctant to directly arm them in favor of hurting Canada.

True enough.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

Chapter 134: The Fenians Are Coming! Part I​

“The events that triggered the international incident that was the Crisis of 1867 began in Cork on May 30th. When, as planned, the St. Patrick came into her moorings and began offloading her illicit cargo to waiting conspirators on shore, the Irish Constabulary acted. With fifty policemen, five detectives, and a company of infantry on standby, the ship was quickly seized with little resistance. The waiting conspirators were rounded up and swiftly hustled back to the barracks to be interrogated as authorities seized the ship itself.

A question immediately popped up as the crew were revealed to largely be American born Irishmen who had no British citizenship. Though cannon were found on board, alongside ammunition and the aforementioned arms, she had not been caught in an act of piracy - which spared the crew the death penalty. However, they could be charged with ‘leveling war against Her Majesty’s Government’ by providing known rebels with arms. Whether to bring those charges forward was vexing, and the information was cabled to Whitehall that very afternoon.

With that information going out though, the Fenian operators feared that the rising might be ruined if they delayed. So they transmitted orders that the plans for the rising would begin immediately. Instead of coordinated action come June 1st, the plans would go into motion on May 31st. That information was sent across the Atlantic at 2pm, arriving in New York at 9am on the 30th, reaching Sweeney is a frazzled state. He was now being ordered to begin the attack on Canada 24 hours in advance, while his forces were still mobilizing. He was not prepared, and neither were his commanders.

Instead, he cabled back that he would proceed as planned, but with the utmost urgency. He then boarded a train for Albany from where he would direct his forces. He planned that for the next 24 hours he would do nothing but make sure all his preparations were in order…

…McMicken received intelligence at 1pm that a Fenian attack was imminent, especially along the Detroit frontier. However, this was pleasant news to McMicken, who could communicate to his superiors that any attack was ‘sure to be hamstrung from the start’ on that axis. Why could he be so sure? It was because Fenian general Charles Tevis was a double agent. The soldier of fortune, while Irish, had no love for the Fenian Brotherhood and was duly reporting all his movements to the Crown, and to McMicken’s own agents. This meant that both the Canadians and British knew that there was supposed to be an attack on that frontier, but that if any materialized at all, it would be a fiasco. Tevis had not arranged for boats for his forces, had in fact resold many of the rifles that were supposed to support his men, and then done little to help organize the men who were showing up.

A steady stream of apologies, delays, and demands for more resources reached Sweeney in Albany. Tevis, he was informed, would be unable to get his men moving by June 1st, let alone by June 2nd, perhaps as late as June 3rd. Infuriated and panicked, Sweeney instead ordered all the assembling Fenians in Cleveland to move to Buffalo where they would join Lynch’s force as it crossed the Niagara instead, fearing no boats could be found there either.

Even there, however, Sweeney suddenly found himself with new obstacles. No one had heard from General Lynch for over two days. He had, by all appearances, fallen off the face of the Earth. Though later brought up on charges of cowardice, it seemed that he was instead suffering from old war wounds, but would still face ostracism from the Irish community and expulsion from the Fenians Brotherhood. However, his lack of appearance meant that many preparations were not undertaken. Men were unorganized, supplies not packed away, and there were many now openly questioning whether the attack would come to pass.

Worried he might lose another piece in his very limited board, Sweeney telegramed O’Neill and informed him that he was now the leader of the Fenian center wing, and promoted to general on the spot[1]. More than a little surprised, O’Neill quickly leapt at the task however, taking the time to inventory his supplies, the men under his command, and all he had available for the coming invasion of Canada…

…only 3,800 had gathered at Camp Sweeney by the 30th of May, and they were increasingly cold, hungry, and occasionally mutinous. Their secrecy however, was assured by the fact that the people of the surrounding counties, and the town of St. Albans especially where the war with Britain had begun for many[2], had a vested stake in seeing the British “get some of their own back” as one citizen put it. So it was that with 4,000 insurgents spread out, no one said anything to government officials. Many remembered the British campaigns of 1863 and brief subsequent occupation. Hopefully the Irish could deliver some justice.

Spear then, had all the secrecy, and potentially all the men he was going to get. Though the numbers, less than one third of what Sweeney felt he’d need, were depressing, there was nothing for it. The odds were long, but when had the odds for Irish independence not been long? He would order the attack to go in on June 1st.

To do so he had the 1,800 men who had shown up to support General Tevis, though many of them were melting away as it became clear there was no plan. Another 2,500 were gathered in Buffalo. Another 1,700 men were scattered around northern New York awaiting orders, with the 3,800 directly under Spear for his main thrust. Finally, 1,600 gathered on the border in Maine. All in all, almost 12,000[3] had come with weapons, and in some cases only their patriotism, ready to fight for Ireland. It may not be enough for his purposes, but it would certainly distract the British Sweeney reckoned.

On that basis, he gave the go ahead for the attacks to begin June 1st…

…gunshots rocked Dublin the morning of May 31st. Much to the surprise of the garrison, armed fighters had appeared in their midst. Overpowering sentries and seizing key intersections and several bridges in the city. The alarm belatedly went out and soldiers were called to arms.

Despite having expected the attacks, Strathnairn was shocked by the sudden outbreak of violence. He had been preparing to place troops on alert this very day as he knew that the rising was scheduled for June 1st. He had already made plans, and dispatched troops to Tallaght Hill where he knew some 2,000 men were supposed to be gathering. The 52nd Regiment of Foot and most of the 2nd Dragoons had already left the city supported by a battery of artillery, leaving some 3,700 men, plus another 200 men of the Irish Constabulary within the city with 300 men of the Dublin Metropolitan Police. The Fenian attackers had roughly 3,000 armed fighters that morning, and they were expecting reinforcements from the countryside.

Barricades were erected, and fighters quickly took up positions. However, despite the tactical surprise, the early morning forays were too numerically insignificant to seize key points in the city. The effort to storm the Magazine was repulsed by an alert sentry and a locked door. No effort was made for the Castle, but various other points were similarly held fast against the rebels purely by the efforts of sentries or the commotion causing officers to seal up their strong points. The various barracks were only isolated by barricades and snipers, but the rebels quickly found themselves stretched thin.

That morning a proclamation was issued to Dublin by Duffy, declaring:

“The Irish People of the World

We have suffered centuries of outrage, enforced poverty, and bitter misery. Our rights and liberties have been trampled on by an alien aristocracy, who treating us as foes, usurped our lands, and drew away from our unfortunate country all material riches. The real owners of the soil were removed to make room for cattle, and driven across the ocean to seek the means of living, and the political rights denied to them at home, while our men of thought and action were condemned to loss of life and liberty. But we never lost the memory and hope of a national existence. We appealed in vain to the reason and sense of justice of the dominant powers. Our mildest remonstrance's were met with sneers and contempt. Our appeals to arms were always unsuccessful. Today, having no honourable alternative left, we again appeal to force as our last resource. We accept the conditions of appeal, manfully deeming it better to die in the struggle for freedom than to continue an existence of utter serfdom. All men are born with equal rights, and in associating to protect one another and share public burdens, justice demands that such associations should rest upon a basis which maintains equality instead of destroying it. We therefore declare that, unable longer to endure the curse of Monarchical Government, we aim at founding a Republic based on universal suffrage, which shall secure to all the intrinsic value of their labour. The soil of Ireland, at present in the possession of an oligarchy, belongs to us, the Irish people, and to us it must be restored. We declare, also, in favour of absolute liberty of conscience, and complete separation of Church and State. We appeal to the Highest Tribunal for evidence of the justness of our cause. History bears testimony to the integrity of our sufferings, and we declare, in the face of our brethren, that we intend no war against the people of England – our war is against the aristocratic locusts, whether English or Irish, who have eaten the verdure of our fields – against the aristocratic leeches who drain alike our fields and theirs. Republicans of the entire world, our cause is your cause. Our enemy is your enemy. Let your hearts be with us. As for you, workmen of England, it is not only your hearts we wish, but your arms. Remember the starvation and degradation brought to your firesides by the oppression of labour. Remember the past, look well to the future, and avenge yourselves by giving liberty to your children in the coming struggle for human liberty. Herewith we proclaim the Irish Republic.”

However, rather than the spontaneous rising that the Fenians had anticipated, thousands instead fled the city or locked their doors. The rebels were further surprised when entreaties to the barracks were met, not by mutinies of men against their officers, but gunfire. Some few did turn out to join the rebels in the streets, but most saw the armed men and chose to keep their heads down. The Fenians had massively overestimated the desire of their countrymen to violently throw off the British yoke[4]. Especially in the cities.

Though the countryside would provide more fruitful recruitment, the rising could not continue if they could not hold Dublin. That would depend on whether the column under Devoy could reach the city…

…Tallaght Hill proved to be the only real stand up fight of the 1867 Rising. The column under Lt. Colonel Arthur Peel arrived well in advance of the rebels, who formed up with arms on the evening of May 31st. Devoy, after being ordered to surrender, instead led his 2,000 men, a mix of American veterans and Irish rebels against the formed men of the 52nd. It was less a battle than a farce. With full expectation of the approach of rebel forces, and supported by artillery and cavalry, the 850 men of the 52nd loosed a volley, followed by a short burst of artillery fire, and in fifteen minutes many of the Fenians were scrambling for cover. Though some companies stood and fought, most broke when the dragoons charged.

The pursuit lasted longer than the battle. Sporadic firing continued for an hour, but the troops largely rounded up the Fenians who surrendered, or threw away their guns in haste to escape. Devoy was among those captured, compelled to surrender by pursuing cavalry.

In total, the Battle of Tallaght Hill cost the British 3 dead and 7 wounded. The Fenians suffered a dozen killed, 47 wounded, and 847 men captured. An unknown number escaped into the countryside. The greatest impact, besides the loss of over 1,000 fighters at a stroke, was that there was no relief coming to the rebels in Dublin itself. Duffy’s men were on their own…” - The Emergency of 1867, Howard Senior, 1986

-----

1] Basically exactly what happened OTL so O’Neill ended up leading the invasion of Canada on that front. With a much bigger chip on his shoulder TTL he’s quite happy for this development.

2] Just to remind everyone how history repeats! But in reality, OTL thanks to the St. Albans Raid the locals were thrilled to pretend the Fenians didn’t exist and to turn a blind eye to their activities.

3] Much better than they managed historically.

4] A recurring problem for the Irish rebels of all stripes was assuming the Irish people were ready for a violent rebellion, which most times they were not. So far as I understand it this was a combination of a social relief valve thanks to emigration, the policy of imprisoning or deporting rebel ringleaders post 1848, and that life had begun to improve in the aftermath of the Famine, alongside most thinking that armed rebellion could never work after so many failures in this period.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

I mean if the Union wants to play at proxy wars Britain has been doing that sort of thing for longer and against bigger powers, and will have far less reservations about arming Natives. Depending on how things shake up with Western states Britain might try stiring up trouble there.

Neither the US or Britain are likely to want to make big arms shipments to the Indigenous peoples of the interior. It has too much potential to bite them in the ass. The US has to worry about domestic backlash as they are sustaining a defeat against the Sioux and the ongoing Comanche menace in the southwest, while Britain has much of the interior based on mostly cordial relations with groups like the Cree, Lakota and Iron Confederacy through the HBC. There's real downsides to attempting to stir the pot in the interior.

Britain just fought its own little "Indian War" in 1865 in BC which would leave the Foreign and Colonial Office with a bad taste in their mouths at the idea.

 

[Son of the Veterinarian]

Neither the US or Britain are likely to want to make big arms shipments to the Indigenous peoples of the interior. It has too much potential to bite them in the ass. The US has to worry about domestic backlash as they are sustaining a defeat against the Sioux and the ongoing Comanche menace in the southwest, while Britain has much of the interior based on mostly cordial relations with groups like the Cree, Lakota and Iron Confederacy through the HBC. There's real downsides to attempting to stir the pot in the interior.

Britain just fought its own little "Indian War" in 1865 in BC which would leave the Foreign and Colonial Office with a bad taste in their mouths at the idea.

Maybe? From my understanding the Bureau of Indian Affairs has historically been the most incompetent and corrupt branch of the U.S. Government - being the primary agency used as a dumping ground for people an incoming administration has to give a job to, but aren’t actually competent to work in government. People who got their ideas of Native Americans from Dime Novels, Missionary screeds, and white supremist literature.

I’ve been told that one of the issues with the RL Indian Wars was that these idiots would trade repeating rifles to Native Americans in order to gain one tribes help against another - not even considering that these guns were decades better than anything the U.S. Army was armed with.

 

[BELFAST]

Nice work.
My grandfather and his brother were in the IRB(later the IRA) in Longford much later and fought in the war of Independence in the 1920s.
They took the free state side in the Civil War.

 

[DarkAvenger]

I have some random questions about some of the people in this TL. When I was reading about William Gwin of California, I found there was another William Gwin, who was a promising naval officer serving in the Union's riverine navy commanding the Benton. He died from battlefield injuries in 1863 but I was wondering if he survived. I know that Benton was sunk in battle against Hollins but did Gwin survive or did he die later than OTL?

The other person is Russian Admiral Stepan Makarov (he wouldn't be admiral until later). He became notable in the 1877 Russo-Turkish War and was a prominent naval researcher and engineer. Among others, he was one of the first to adopt the idea of a flotilla of torpedo boats and even designed the first torpedo boat tender. He also researched icebreakers to establish a northern route between Europe and East Asia for trade and military purposes. I remember that you said there is no Russo-Turkish War so I wonder how his career could change.

 

[PaulJones202718]

Ah. It's not just the Fenians that are a problem. It's people who didn't like the idea of the Redcoats coming to town to stay.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

Maybe? From my understanding the Bureau of Indian Affairs has historically been the most incompetent and corrupt branch of the U.S. Government - being the primary agency used as a dumping ground for people an incoming administration has to give a job to, but aren’t actually competent to work in government. People who got their ideas of Native Americans from Dime Novels, Missionary screeds, and white supremist literature.

I’ve been told that one of the issues with the RL Indian Wars was that these idiots would trade repeating rifles to Native Americans in order to gain one tribes help against another - not even considering that these guns were decades better than anything the U.S. Army was armed with.

Generally yes. The competent and corrupt officials probably did more to inflame the passions of the Native peoples than even the worst army columns under men like Custer and Chivington. Signing an agreement and then breaking it is a serious sin in the eyes of the Indian peoples, and indeed that did cause recurrent issues. The Great Sioux War would never have taken place as was without broken promises and the desire of the US government for gold in the Black Hills.

The repeating rifles thing was indeed an issue, among others. That was largely because the US was awash in weapons and ammunition post-civil war, which made putting weapons in the hands of unscrupulous traders to then trade to the Plains peoples quite easy. This happened a lot with the Comanche especially, with Comanchero traders across the Southwest largely trading with the Comanche with impunity. This gave them access to weapons and gunpowder they would not have otherwise had.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

Nice work.
My grandfather and his brother were in the IRB(later the IRA) in Longford much later and fought in the war of Independence in the 1920s.
They took the free state side in the Civil War.

Thank you!

And fascinating. I'm not as well versed with the post-WWI aspects of Irish politics at the moment (beyond what I've learned n a few podcasts) but I have found that the IRA who joined the Free State were, for the period, probably the pragmatists. The late 19th century Fenians were - while I do respect some of their leaders like Sweeney - very fractious men whose egos often got in the way of the cause of Irish liberation.

 

[BELFAST]

Thank you!

And fascinating. I'm not as well versed with the post-WWI aspects of Irish politics at the moment (beyond what I've learned n a few podcasts) but I have found that the IRA who joined the Free State were, for the period, probably the pragmatists. The late 19th century Fenians were - while I do respect some of their leaders like Sweeney - very fractious men whose egos often got in the way of the cause of Irish liberation.

Splits in paramilitary groups continued into the 20th century and beyond in Ireland.
Brendan Behan famously said that the first item on the agenda of a meeting of an Irish paramilitary/secret organisation was always the split.

Surviving the split: Sinn Féin’s long road to independence from the IRA

After a century of friction, the party of Irish republicanism has finally rid itself of the whiff of sulphur and cordite

www.theguardian.com

Strangely in was the Scotts-Ulster side of my family in Longford who were in the IRB, not the Clare side who were Irish and not involved.
Irish Republicans were for the most part not socialists and were for the most part fairly conservative.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

I have some random questions about some of the people in this TL. When I was reading about William Gwin of California, I found there was another William Gwin, who was a promising naval officer serving in the Union's riverine navy commanding the Benton. He died from battlefield injuries in 1863 but I was wondering if he survived. I know that Benton was sunk in battle against Hollins but did Gwin survive or did he die later than OTL?

Unfortunately he died later than OTL thanks to Hollins victory on the Mississippi.

The other person is Russian Admiral Stepan Makarov (he wouldn't be admiral until later). He became notable in the 1877 Russo-Turkish War and was a prominent naval researcher and engineer. Among others, he was one of the first to adopt the idea of a flotilla of torpedo boats and even designed the first torpedo boat tender. He also researched icebreakers to establish a northern route between Europe and East Asia for trade and military purposes. I remember that you said there is no Russo-Turkish War so I wonder how his career could change.

I haven't decided exactly how the Russo-Turkish War, if it happens at all, will pan out. So Makarov's career is a bit up in the air. I am a bit fond of him from my own research on the Russo-Japanese War so I have some ideas for him. The Russian Far East will be a more important posting in the latter half of the 19th and early 20th centuries.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

Ah. It's not just the Fenians that are a problem. It's people who didn't like the idea of the Redcoats coming to town to stay.

It is accurate to say that the Era of Hard Feelings isn't just an internal issue. There's plenty who have a grudge against Britain too. Butler being one of the primary instigators of the problem.

He's got an idea (not unlike William Seward) that all the internal issues of the United States can be solved with a good foreign crisis.