A True and Better Alamo: The Battle For Wake Atoll

[Fred the Great]

Sorry you are not liking the banter we have added to the timeline. I personally enjoy tossing out what ifs and possibilities. They add to the flavor of the story and might help inspire the writer in some small way. Even if not actually used, the feedback is like food and praise to these who put their own time to create a story. My own feelings are never hurt if my posts are ignored or not responded to.

Hopefully you will find other stories that more suit your needs. For me, I eagerly await new updates from Fearless Leader and reading others input and comments.

Not really following you zert. I have no issue with the banter or people expressing opinions or ideas. Isn't that why people post on such a forum?

For me, I'm making comment on plausibility, and I find it a pity that it's lacking so much now given what I considered was a very strong start.

 

[marathag]

The USN's CVEs were fitted with catapults, and relied heavily upon them in air operations; IIRC most launches from CVEs were cat shots, as opposed to unassisted takeoff runs. Pretty sure that a reconstruction of Langley into an escort carrier would include a catapult.

Take-off of America's first "rocket-assisted" airplane, an Ercoupe fitted with a GALCIT developed solid propellent 28 pound thrust JATO (Jet Assisted Take-Off) booster. The Ercoupe took off from March Field, California and was piloted by Captain Homer A. Boushey Jr.

the Navy Department regarded the successful Ercoupe tests with much interest for rocket assisted take-off of aircraft from aircraft carriers. Upon the urging of Lt. C.F. Fischer of the Bureau of Aeronautics, who had witnessed the tests, a contract was placed by the Navy with the Project in early 1942 for the development of a 200 lb. thrust, 8 second unit. The unit was designated by the acronym JATO for Jet Assisted Take-Off

The Navy contract for 100 JATO units was successfully completed, with GALCIT 53 as the propellant. Production of service-type units for the Navy began shortly thereafter at the Aerojet Engineering Corporation.

It was a simple, robust propellant. Potassium perchlorate, asphalt and lubricating oil. The propellant would continue to be improved during the war to improve the power and reduce the smoke.

Postwar, asphalt would be replaced by a rubber like compound named Thiokol, and would power large missiles

 

[zert]

Not really following you zert. I have no issue with the banter or people expressing opinions or ideas. Isn't that why people post on such a forum?

For me, I'm making comment on plausibility, and I find it a pity that it's lacking so much now given what I considered was a very strong start.

My apologies. I somehow read your first post wrong. I ask your pardon.

That taken as is, I will agree that I think the Darwin invasion does not sound very plausible, but it does help to defend the Japanese holdings in the DEI and their starting to ship as much oil and other valuable products home.

What other plausibilities, aside from Darwin and the comfort women rescue, do you feel are taken away the story and find lacking? Not an attack, I am curious to know your feelings.

 

[Fred the Great]

My apologies. I somehow read your first post wrong. I ask your pardon.

That taken as is, I will agree that I think the Darwin invasion does not sound very plausible, but it does help to defend the Japanese holdings in the DEI and their starting to ship as much oil and other valuable products home.

What other plausibilities, aside from Darwin and the comfort women rescue, do you feel are taken away the story and find lacking? Not an attack, I am curious to know your feelings.

I don't see how the Darwin invasion is a reasonable butterfly from the events around Wake. It's largely irrelevant to the changing circumstances that the Americans have presented to the Japanese.

Occupying the Dutch East Indies was a strategic goal of the Japanese to obtain oil. That's largely what the war was about. Occupying islands like Timor provided a buttress to defend the oil-producing areas, giving the Japanese more strategic depth. But Darwin doesn't really add anything for the Japanese. It's not an island, in spite of what was written in the narrative, and there are serious logistical challenges for the Japanese in maintaining such a sizeable (by their standards) garrison. I can see some merit in seizing Darwin and destroying the place (effectively a raid), but an occupation makes little sense.

What has occurred in this timeline vis-a-vis Wake would make the Japanese more worried about the US adopting a Central Pacific strategy (War Plan Orange, in essence). So we'd be more likely to see the Japanese do something to shore up their positions there. I mean, historically they wanted Wake as an outer defensive work, as such.

I've already outlined why the entire previous update is entirely implausible so I won't go over that again.

I guess what I find disappointing is that it also didn't flow with everything up to this point, which was very much a detailed look at Wake and how a few changes could have altered the outcome there.

 

[zert]

snip

Thanks Marathag. I was aware of Jatos and their use with getting planes into the air, especially those loaded with weapons, but I had not been aware that the testing was as early as 1942.

Learning something new on AH.com is good for the brain.

 

[mattep74]

Oh dear. What started off as a serious look at Wake is now descending into fan-boy-like nonsense about rescuing the virtues of women in need, with cameos from historical figures and the use of really cool firearms.

So what? Its a great story nontheless.

 

[zert]

So what? Its a great story nontheless.

Well said Mattp74. I do not need total believability in a story and with this one not only fun to read, it is also filled with good old fashioned action.

 

[jlckansas]

Completely agree.

It makes no sense TTL to do this, unless someone in the Japanese high command intentionally wants to leave lots of troops to wither on the vine in their farthest conquest, subject to a supply line that can have punishing losses repeated inflicted on it, for no gain. I would suspect that person of being a traitor, or at least an American/Australian sympathizer.

You do realize you are saying that the Japanese High Command, who thought the US would just roll over and make peace with them after they attacked the US, are rational. These are the people who basically had no clue what the reality of what the world was.

Think of all the silly things they planned and did. They did leave units to wither on the vine so to speak. And to top it all off they had the orginal loose cannons, pun intended, in the Kwantung army which started the war with China on its own.

 

[Fearless Leader]

Hey Guys,

I'd love to present some counter arguments at the moment, but RL is kicking my ass. I got a bunch of new work assigned to me today which combined with other commitments means that AH needs to take a holiday. I will hopefully have time to pick this up in the future.

 

[zert]

Totally understand and I wish you the best. Update when you are inspired to and able. I really appreciate the work you have shared so far.

 

[Jim Smitty]

Hey Guys,

I'd love to present some counter arguments at the moment, but RL is kicking my ass. I got a bunch of new work assigned to me today which combined with other commitments means that AH needs to take a holiday. I will hopefully have time to pick this up in the future.

Such is life. I hope you can get back to this soon because this is good work.

 

[NHBL]

Good luck...

...with the extra work. I am VERY looking forwards to the next part when it's ready!

 

[Donald Reaver]

Will second that, looking forward too where this goes.

 

[marathag]

Thanks Marathag. I was aware of Jatos and their use with getting planes into the air, especially those loaded with weapons, but I had not been aware that the testing was as early as 1942.

Learning something new on AH.com is good for the brain.

The first F4U pic was from USS Altamaha CVE-18, March 1 1944.

Aerojet was waiting for a large contract, but it didn't go thru till late 1943. They were able to make 800 bottles per month.

their 1942 model had 200 pounds of thrust for 8 seconds. The contract model was 250 pounds for 12 seconds, then 15 seconds in 1944.

The Navy now wanted 20,000 per month. Late in 1944, Aerojet made 30 second 1000 pound bottle to JPL for rocket testing of the Private missile. Aerojet was bought by General Tire Corporation, which came with capital for expansion.

8,12,14 and 15 second 500 and 1000 pound thrust bottles made in 1945.

Aeroject was ready for low volume production in mid 1942, just the thing for a small, slow carrier like Langley.

SBDs and TBFs were tested with the JATO bottles, too- not just fighters.

 

[zert]

Well even more trivia and details I did not know. Thanks Marathag for the post. I am not sure if Fearless Leader will use the Jatos but it does give food for thought.

 

[100Fathoms]

Understand good Sir, will be hear when your ready to Post. Godspeed...

 

[Zheng He]

FL - Great stuff as usual but I think you are missing something very obvious. Given the need for carriers by the USN in the Pacific, there is no way the Ranger would stay in the Atlantic. You have written in conversions for Langley and Furious but you ignore the potential for the Ranger to be upgraded which Admiral King actually had the Navy look into OTL in 1944:

Prior to her returning to the U.S., Chief of Naval Operations AdmiralErnest King had planned to overhaul the carrier by lengthening the hull and installing new engines. Ranger had been designed in the late 1920s, and consequently was smaller, slower, less armored, and carried fewer aircraft and ammunition supplies than the rest of the U.S. carrier fleet. Admiral King favored having the conversions done, but his staff officers pointed out that the resources required to accomplish this would impact on the construction and repair of newer, larger, and more capable aircraft carriers. Based on this information, the full project was canceled. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Ranger_(CV-4)#cite_note-ranger1944-45ref3-45

However, by 1944 such a conversion was no longer necessary but in the summer of 1942 given what has happened in your ATL it would have been viewed as absolutely crucial, particularly since an upgraded Ranger is going to be much more capable than an upgraded Furious.

 

[zert]

I think even with the crunch that the USN would leave the Ranger in the Atlantic. They would want at least one semi fleet carrier available and the Ranger did help to fly in fighters to Malta as well as support Torch.

 

[Andras]

FL - Great stuff as usual but I think you are missing something very obvious. Given the need for carriers by the USN in the Pacific, there is no way the Ranger would stay in the Atlantic. You have written in conversions for Langley and Furious but you ignore the potential for the Ranger to be upgraded which Admiral King actually had the Navy look into OTL in 1944:

Prior to her returning to the U.S., Chief of Naval Operations AdmiralErnest King had planned to overhaul the carrier by lengthening the hull and installing new engines. Ranger had been designed in the late 1920s, and consequently was smaller, slower, less armored, and carried fewer aircraft and ammunition supplies than the rest of the U.S. carrier fleet. Admiral King favored having the conversions done, but his staff officers pointed out that the resources required to accomplish this would impact on the construction and repair of newer, larger, and more capable aircraft carriers. Based on this information, the full project was canceled. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Ranger_(CV-4)#cite_note-ranger1944-45ref3-45

However, by 1944 such a conversion was no longer necessary but in the summer of 1942 given what has happened in your ATL it would have been viewed as absolutely crucial, particularly since an upgraded Ranger is going to be much more capable than an upgraded Furious.

In the summer of 42 every slip that can do that is full.

 

[Zheng He]

I think even with the crunch that the USN would leave the Ranger in the Atlantic. They would want at least one semi fleet carrier available and the Ranger did help to fly in fighters to Malta as well as support Torch.

I don't think the Ranger ever Spitfires to Malta - the Wasp did it twice but the Ranger did fly USAAF P-40 groups off to West Africa and they hopped to the Middle East and India. Of course ITTL I guess the Ranger would be needed to fly Spitfires to Malta since the Wasp is already in the Pacific.

Still not sure I agree though. If we are down to two operational carriers (one damaged) in the late spring and early summer of 1942 I do not see us leaving a deck that can operate 70 aircraft whatever its flaws in the Atlantic. Especially since Torch is not until November.

Good point on the slips Andras - I guess the Ranger does not upgraded, at least not yet.