AH discussion: Greatest city of the Middle Age.

AH discussion.

With a time period of 600 to 1453, what city or cities would you find exceptionally defensible, economically dominant and culturally important.

Also I would like to compare these cities in terms of their relevance for the period. Especially when it comes to comparing the defensibility and importance of major settlements like Baghdad to Constantinople. For instance one observation is the indefensibility of Jerusalem despite its influential and religious importance.

Some cities like Cteshipon can be included with their feats from the past if warranted and carried over in the time period to be discussed. Such as, Cteshipon, was it as defensible as Baghdad and how could the defense of Abbasid powers go in a location of Cteshipon or insert city.
 
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No list of great medieval cities would be complete without Tang dynasty Chang'an.

One of the biggest cities in the world at the time, cosmopolitan, a center of art and culture filled with temples and gardens and sporting fields. It was located at the start or the the silk roads, which gave it additiona economic importance.

Of course after the An Lushan rebellion, it was devastated and never recovered. But, it fits the time frame and was undeniably a wonder to behold before it's destruction. In theory it should have been very defensibly located, but it fell due to intrigue.
 
Basically a "barbarian" general named An Lushan launched a rebellion with the help of a large portion of the Tang army. Although he was defeated in an initial battle, he was able to survive.

But Chang'an was ringed with defensible, fortified mountain passes and for An Lushan, attacking them was essentially suicide. So he waited, and fortune delivered him a decisive moment - the enemy commander was replaced with another general, and the new general was ordered to attack against all logic. The Tang army was destroyed and the capital was left undefended.
 
@Practical Lobster So it was essentially a strategic flaw? This sounds very similar to the late Abbasid defense of Baghdad against the Mongols of Hulagu.

An Abbasid ruler puts his resources into paying off the invaders and insisting on diplomacy instead of using his vast walls and large and loyal Sunni Arab populace.
 
To elaborate on what happened was that the fortified pass in particular was the highly strategic Tong Pass.The generals originally in charge of defending the pass were Gao Xianzhi(the same commander who led the Tang army at the Battle of Talas) and his deputy Feng Chengqing.The two were extremely upright and managed to offend a corrupt eunuch Bian Lingcheng,who was in the service of the emperor.This particular eunuch began to sow doubts of the two generals' competence and loyalty in the mind of Li Longzhi(the emperor) given these two were just defeated by An Lushan prior to retreating to Tong Pass(the Court also believed that An Lushan was weak and could be easily defeated).The two were executed as a result and a new general,Geshu Han was deployed.Now Geshu Han was a bitter enemy of the corrupt and incompetent Chancellor Yang Guozhong,who owed his position due to him being a relative of Li Longzhi's favorite concubine Yang Yuhuan.Due to the fact that Tang forces assembled around Tong Pass were mostly new recruits or poor quality troops(like the original Imperial guards that defended the capital,which was a largely political force filled with hereditary recruits who often neglected their training or paid some other guy to fill their post,since the force was used to prevent coups rather than expect to fight wars),Tang forces were unsuited to go on an offensive against An Lushan's highly experienced forces,which was the same reason why this army was originally defeated when it was commanded by Gao Xianzhi and Feng Chengqing.Geshu Han knew this and refused to go on an offensive,but due to his poor relationship with Yang Guozhong,who probably tried to get rid of him the same way Bian Lingcheng got rid of Gao Xianzhi,the emperor was persuaded by Yang Guozhong into thinking that the army was adequate for an attack on An Lushan's forces and Geshu Han was ordered to sally forth out of the pass with his army.With the recent example of Gao Xianzhi and Feng Chengqing,Geshu Han did not dare to reject the order and the result was that the army which originally defended the pass was destroyed and the Tong Pass was easily taken by An Lushan's forces now that it's garrison has been largely destroyed.Without the mountains which surrounded it,the only thing that protected Chang'an from An Lushan's forces was the city's walls.Given that much of the forces which originally protected the capital region was now either destroyed or were of poor quality--the result was that the emperor had to flee the city and abandon it.

If you are interested in why the Imperial Guards were largely an ineffectual force,it's largely got to do with the fact that the Tang Dynasty was filled with a ridiculous amount of coups.Up till and including Li Longji's own reign,the only emperor without a military coup during his reign was Li Zhi.Even Li Longji himself ascended the throne through the help of not one,but TWO military coups using the Imperial Guards.Because of this,Li Longji left control of the guards in the hands of close confidents who were loyal but not necessary capable, like Chen Xuanli,who was left in charge of the guard for 45 years after first helping Li Longji come to power in 710.There's also the fact that the much more militarily capable sixteen guards,which largely comprised of part-time soldiers who were given land in exchange ,was largely rendered symbolic after Li Longji reformed the army into a professional force which largely spent it's time on the frontier.This left the capital largely defended by guard units that either comprised aristocrats or those that inherited their positions due to them being descendants of the original imperial guard when Tang first came to power.Quite often,wealthy guardsmen would hire proxies to serve on their behalf rather than actually spend time in their military unit.
 
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It's a bit late in the period, but spare a thought for Venice? One of the mightiest trading hubs of the contemporary Mediterranean, highly defensible, and utterly beautiful.
 
I'll just throw in Constantinople as the obvious answer, for reasons few need explained. By far the largest, most populous, wealthiest, and most defensible city west of China. Without it, the Eastern Roman Empire likely would have fallen completely at one point or another in the 7th century.

Or are we suppose to only name cities besides Constantinople?
 
KONSTANTINOPOLIS!
SUI GENERIS!
THE SAINTS AND EMPERORS OF BYGONE CENTURIES!
THE MAN-MADE BIRDS IN THEIR TREES
OUT LOAD THEIR PAEAN RINGS!
IMMORTALITY!


Really, that it existed through most of that period as the capital of a great empire and became the capital of the Ottomans after that endmark is a testament to its importance. Not to mention it being the other end of the Silk Road. :p

I'll just throw in Constantinople as the obvious answer, for reasons few need explained. By far the largest, most populous, wealthiest, and most defensible city west of China. Without it, the Eastern Roman Empire likely would have fallen completely at one point or another in the 7th century.
 
I'm a bit biased, but Córdoba has to be on that list. On top of being "the Jewel of the World" and apparently holding almost as many people as Constantinople, it basically was Andalusia's economy. Once the city and its environs were torn up during the fitna and the centre of power moved to taifa-period Seville, it just wasn't the same. Córdoba had the most infrastructure and the most well-developed surrounding agricultural area. Once that was gone, Andalusia lost a lot of what made it great.

There was a time when Halych, out by the Dniester, was a pretty regionally important city, at least until the Mongols set it on fire. Plus it marks a case where the western Rus' started to piece together power on their own - the guys who ran Halych-Volhynia had a different experience with their relations with the rest of Europe than the guys up in Vladimir did, it seems.
 
@darthfanta Hmm very interesting. Did the Tang repel any attack on Chang'an during their reign that could be considered a feat?

Such as Constantinople's several victories and evidences of its defensibility.

Or

Baghdad which showed its defensiveness in four different sieges before the Mongol hordes arrived in the 1250s.
 
I'll just throw in Constantinople as the obvious answer, for reasons few need explained. By far the largest, most populous, wealthiest, and most defensible city west of China. Without it, the Eastern Roman Empire likely would have fallen completely at one point or another in the 7th century.

Or are we suppose to only name cities besides Constantinople?

Agreed, in my opinion, Constantinople was the greatest city of the early to mid Middle Ages and it was the primary factor in keeping Byzantium alive after the fall of Amorium.
 
I don't have precise pop numbers but the conquistadors were utterly amazed by the size of Tenochtitlan.

That's a good discussion there. Tenochitlan was certainly incredible, also it was in the middle of a lake (Texococo correct?), giving it extreme defensibility. As well, I'm sure it had a very large population, though we must realize the Spaniards gave fantastical reports to warrant its interest in Spain.
 
That's a good discussion there. Tenochitlan was certainly incredible, also it was in the middle of a lake (Texococo correct?), giving it extreme defensibility. As well, I'm sure it had a very large population, though we must realize the Spaniards gave fantastical reports to warrant its interest in Spain.
Well, even the most down to earth chronicles (can't remember the name of the guy, the soldier who had a bone to pick with Cortes) was awed, saying it was nothing like the cities in Europe.

Then again, what did they know about that? However, a few of those guys might have travelled to Italy for the wars so you never know
 
Well, even the most down to earth chronicles (can't remember the name of the guy, the soldier who had a bone to pick with Cortes) was awed, saying it was nothing like the cities in Europe.

Then again, what did they know about that? However, a few of those guys might have travelled to Italy for the wars so you never know

Well, it certainly was an incredible city. It probably was greater than any city in Spain/Iberia, and possibly greater than Rome at the time. However, I am not entirely sure on that.

If there is someone who is an expert on this, we can discuss its merit compared to other cities and its respective defensiveness. I myself, can see Tenochitlan having the ability to develop a defense similar to Venice if a nation owning it had the ability to create a navy and seawalls. Further, it from my conception was a supremely beautiful city and very colorful. I personally, have always found the Aztec as being one of the most exotic states in history in how foreign it is to Arab civilization. It would have been interesting to see descriptions of the city had it kept its original flavor.
 
Well, it certainly was an incredible city. It probably was greater than any city in Spain/Iberia, and possibly greater than Rome at the time. However, I am not entirely sure on that.

If there is someone who is an expert on this, we can discuss its merit compared to other cities and its respective defensiveness. I myself, can see Tenochitlan having the ability to develop a defense similar to Venice if a nation owning it had the ability to create a navy and seawalls. Further, it from my conception was a supremely beautiful city and very colorful. I personally, have always found the Aztec as being one of the most exotic states in history in how foreign it is to Arab civilization. It would have been interesting to see descriptions of the city had it kept its original flavor.
It was actually extremely defensible, with small bridges linking different areas of the city and only three bridges leading to the banks of the lake. All those could be destroyed in an attack which is why, when the Spanish tried to escape they had to have portable bridges and even then, it got so bad that they could cross by climbing the bodies of their comrades, although that might be an exaggeration.

On top of that, the lake was patrolled by combat ships.

The Spanish had to count on a big army of allies, European style ships built in the lake, a long siege AND a smallpox epidemic on virgin ground to take it. Plus cannons and horses.

So yeah, as good as it gets really.
 
There are too many "great cities" to just name one. Baghdad, Constantinople, Alexandria, Hangzhou, and maybe even Tenochtitlan before the Spanish Conquests.
 
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