Ancient Egypt survives to this day

Matt Quinn said:
Okay, we've got dynastic information and some details as to what happens during these Pharaohs' reigns.

Now what?

Still working on that. Will post ASAP...I got married this past Saturday and just got back from my honeymoon, so I haven't had much time to think about this for the past few days. ;) But I thought I would post what I had done on Friday, at least....
 
More info on Saite Egypt...

SOCIAL AND POLITICAL STRUCTURE OF THE SAITE STATE--Part One

With the accession to the throne of Psamtik I (656-609 BC), Pharaonic Egypt entered a last period of independence and prosperity, but it was vulnerable both from without and within. Its capability to fend off foreign aggressors and the stability of its régime depended to a large degree on the good will of mercenaries, many of whom were foreigners.

This changed when Necho II (609-594 BC) had a vision of the great god Osiris, instructing him to send a fleet to find the lost land of Ophir. The fleet he hired from the Phoenicians circumnavigated the African continent, and Ophir was found! Gold started flowing into the coffers of the Pharaoh as in the glorious days of old, and Necho was able to rebuild his armies using primarily native-born Egyptian troops, loyal to the Pharaoh, rather than mercenaries..

However, there continued to be a significant mercenary component in the army (the Egyptian army was, in these early days, trained by Greek officers), and the influx of foreigners, and the education received by Pharaoah's Necho I and Psamtik I, combined to change Egyptian life. Psamtik I, and his father Necho I before him, had spent much of their youth in Assyria, where the kings-while very powerful-were never considered to be divine. Therefore, the attitude of the Saite Pharaohs towards the kingship was radically different from the Egyptian tradition. The lifestyle of the pharaohs of Sais was much less ostentatious, to the point of being considered frugal by contemporary writers. And there was no return to the ancient traditions under the later kings.

Psamtik I strengthened royal power over the former warlords of the delta and the priesthood by abrogating feudal and clerical immunities and privileges. At the same time he endowed Greek communities with land and rights. The land, which had traditionally belonged to the pharaoh, had become, in the years prior to the advent of the Saite dynasty, to all intents and purposes property of the tenants, who no longer offered their persons as sureties but rather their land or even future crops. Land could be exchanged or sold, as long as the changes were registered by the local administration. As a result of this
privatisation a class of landowners, the nemhu, formed. From 650 BC onward, the Egyptian homeland is mostly at peace and the civil population, and above all the new bourgeoisie prospers.

This wealth is reflected in a flowering of the arts. The pharaohs and the Wives of the God Amen at Thebes continue the formidable architectural tradition of Egypt’s glorious past. Remarkable workmanship in hard stone such as diorite and granite, and progress in the working of metals is achieved. Bronze statues are plentiful and attest to a steady supply of the expensive metal. The style, while being traditional, is more naturalistic than
anything seen since the Amarna period. The creation, or perhaps rather production, of statuettes, amulets, talismans and other metal objects is widespread, supported by an affluent middle class.

The pharaohs do not neglect to collect what was due to them, be it taxes or labour. The Pharaoh Ahmosi II (569-525 BC) created the world’s first income tax. He established a law that “every year each one of the Egyptians should declare to the ruler of his district, from what source he got his livelihood, and if any man did not do this or did not make declaration of an honest way of living, he should be punished with death.” Ahmosi (who came to the throne in the aftermath of an army revolt which toppled his father from the throne) exempts members of the Egyptian Army from this tax, thus making military service more attractive to native Egyptians. Thus he is able to dramatically reduce the proportion of mercenaries in the army, which effectively ends the threat of army revolts once and for all. Because of the flow of gold from Ophir and the huge trade profits Egypt is raking in, the income taxes are very low, and unlike OTL, the people do not feel overburdened by taxation.

Ahmosi also disposes of the goods of the temples as he sees fit. Just as the military nobles had been neutralized by absorbing many of them into the royal administration, the priests are turned into officials of the monarchy too, and their upkeep and that of their temples becomes the responsibility of the royal treasury. The threat to the monarchy posed by the power of the priestly class is broken. mercenary officers of great ability, for example). The influx of foreigners, above all of the Greeks, and the origin and education of the pharaohs

Thus by the end of Ahmosi II’s reign the foundations have been laid for a very stable, prosperous, and secure society, which it will remain (with brief exceptions) for the next 2500 years, until the present day.
 
"I got married this past Saturday and just got back from my honeymoon"

Congratulations! Where'd you honeymoon?

Judging from your comments about the Saite dynasty, there's no more "oriental despotism" going on here. It seems more like a traditional European absolutist/semi-absolutist state now, albeit with a vastly different religion.
 
Matt Quinn said:
"I got married this past Saturday and just got back from my honeymoon"

Congratulations! Where'd you honeymoon?

Judging from your comments about the Saite dynasty, there's no more "oriental despotism" going on here. It seems more like a traditional European absolutist/semi-absolutist state now, albeit with a vastly different religion.

Thank you, Matt! We went to stay at one of the native American casinos near Phoenix (on the Apache Reservation at San Carlos). We had a wonderful time.

As for my comments about the Saite dynasty, most of the stuff given is actually historical as per OTL...one of the reasons why I thought Saite Egypt might actually be an interesting POD. The main "tweaks" I gave it were simply to infuse more money into the society, allowing the Pharoahs to lower their oppressive taxes, and use their tax structure to encourage native Egyptians to enlist in the military. I could actually see, in time, something like parliamentary democracy developing in this society as the "nehmu" (land-owning bourgeousie) grow in wealth, power and influence. Given a POD back about 600 BC, this gives plenty of time for such drastic changes to take place. Should be interesting as it develops.
 
Necho XIX “the Navigator” 1460-1501 AD Sent the first Egyptian ships to the New World.
To build ships that could sail so far, Egypt would need access to timber bigger than any that grew in Egypt.

The maps show that Egypt owned Judaea. If so, if there were no revolts like the OTL Zealot and Bar Kokhba revolts, the Jews may stay home through the centuries to this day. They would likely speak Aramaic, with Hebrew only as a liturgical and learned language. These various differences may butterfly into a "no Islam" time line.

Contact with the Aramaic and Hebrew writing systems may induce someone to invent a system of vowel pointing for the hieroglyphic writing system. That may lead to a general and very overdue spelling reform.
 
Anthony Appleyard said:
To build ships that could sail so far, Egypt would need access to timber bigger than any that grew in Egypt.

True. But they have access to trees from Madagascar and the east African coastal regions, as well as Lebanon.

Anthony Appleyard said:
The maps show that Egypt owned Judaea. If so, if there were no revolts like the OTL Zealot and Bar Kokhba revolts, the Jews may stay home through the centuries to this day. They would likely speak Aramaic, with Hebrew only as a liturgical and learned language. These various differences may butterfly into a "no Islam" time line.

All good points. However, I think the effect on the Jewish Diaspora of the 1st and 2nd Century AD anti-Roman revolts is very much over-stated. The Diaspora was already well underway LONG before the revolts mentioned...it began with the Babylonian Captivity in 586 BC, and continued throughout the Persian Period. Jewish communities were established in Mesopotamia, Southern Arabia, Syria and Asia Minor during that period, which would not be affected by the events in the ATL. Egypt, in this ATL, doesn't get Judea ("Yehud") until about 325 BC (at the conclusion of the joint war against Persia fought by Psamtik IX of Egypt and Alexander of Macedon). I think something like Islam will probably still emerge...the Jewish and Christian influences which in OTL influenced Mohammed are still going to be present in Southern and eastern Arabia.

Anthony Appleyard said:
Contact with the Aramaic and Hebrew writing systems may induce someone to invent a system of vowel pointing for the hieroglyphic writing system. That may lead to a general and very overdue spelling reform.

Very probably true...
 
I think something like Islam will probably still emerge
If so, Islam will likely be unable to get into Africa (unless they cross the Bab al Mandeb). In which case, the North Africans remain Berber-speaking; no Bani Hilal rampage; no Muslim period in Spain; perhaps no Barbary Coast pirates.

Necho XXIII 1941-1950 AD
Necho XXIV 1950-1965 AD
Seti XIV 1965-present day

If so, Seti XIV has ruled 39 years at date. A very long reign usually results when the regular succession of son succeeding father, is interrupted. For example, UK Queen Elizabeth II has ruled 50 years because her father George VI died before his time (from lung cancer from smoking).
 
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Anthony Appleyard said:
If so, Islam will likely be unable to get into Africa (unless they cross the Bab al Mandeb). In which case, the North Africans remain Berber-speaking; no Bani Hilal rampage; no Muslim period in Spain; perhaps no Barbary Coast pirates.

All true. And that opens up some interesting possibilities. If Islam is blocked from expansion into Africa, it may head in the other direction. India, China, Japan...all might be conquered by Islam, for example. Or they might go north into Russia, or into Europe via the Bosphorus.

In addition to the possible effects on Islam, the Egyptians are going to be imparting their culture to the large parts of Africa they occupy. Without Egyptian grain, will Rome be able to maintain it's empire as long? Perhaps they and the Parthians wear themselves out and they both collapse in the Third Century AD. If Rome falls prematurely, how will Europe develop? Will the Huns conquer the entire continent, with no strong power to resist them? The butterflies from this timeline are almost certainly going to leave the world we live in today virtually unrecognizable.

It is getting increasingly difficult, as I work on this, to keep any resemblance to the OTL there at all (which is why the next installment is taking so long to produce). But I hope to have the next lot (up to 500 AD) posted soon. ;)

Anthony Appleyard said:
If so, Seti XIV has ruled 39 years at date. A very long reign usually results when the regular succession of son succeeding father, is interrupted. For example, UK Queen Elizabeth II has ruled 50 years because her father George VI died before his time (from lung cancer from smoking).

Also true. In fact, his father had a short reign (only 15 years) so this might be why. And there are other possible reasons. Perhaps Seti's father had ten daughters and one son...Seti is thus the youngest of a large brood of children, and so came to the throne young. And even if neither is the case, it is not an impossibly long reign at anyway...if he came to the throne at 40 years old, he'd be 79 now. At 50, 89. Very old, but certainly not unlikely (assuming medical technology has kept up with OTL).
 
Islam??????

Islam is a Reformation of Cristianity Growing out of the Arabia Desert Religion. Given a Eygptain contol of Arabia, and a different culture, Joesph, Mary and Jesus, Would have returned to palistine, with a completly different viewpoint. I doubt there would have been a Islam Reformation.
 
robertp6165 said:
In addition to the possible effects on Islam, the Egyptians are going to be imparting their culture to the large parts of Africa they occupy. Without Egyptian grain, will Rome be able to maintain it's empire as long? Perhaps they and the Parthians wear themselves out and they both collapse in the Third Century AD.
They become more dependent on Gaul and such areas. Maybe this spurs the invention of the moldboard plough, to utilize such soil?
 
DuQuense said:
Islam is a Reformation of Cristianity Growing out of the Arabia Desert Religion. Given a Eygptain contol of Arabia, and a different culture, Joesph, Mary and Jesus, Would have returned to palistine, with a completly different viewpoint. I doubt there would have been a Islam Reformation.

Well, I agree it won't be the same Islam as WE know it in OTL. However, the seeds for the rise of an alternate Islam are still there...there are Jewish communities in western Arabia, and there will be Christian communities, to influence the Mohammed-analog who will arise in this timeline. Will Islam in the ATL be the same as Islam in the OTL? Probably not. But even if it is not Islam as we know it, something like it will probably arise, IMHO, anyway.
 
DominusNovus said:
They become more dependent on Gaul and such areas. Maybe this spurs the invention of the moldboard plough, to utilize such soil?

That's a good thought. Another possibility I just thought of is grain from the Black Sea region (basically the Ukraine). The Greeks utilized this in OTL. If the Romans expanded in that direction, they could utilize it as well.
 
Saite Egypt, continued...

SAITE TIMELINE, 100 BC to 224 AD

95 BC: Pharaoh Psamtik X dies. Succeeded by Thutmoses VI.

90 BC-75 BC--First Parthian War between Rome and Parthia. Egypt neutral,
secretly provides funding to both sides. War is inconclusive, both sides
exhausted, agree to peace brokered by Egypt.

70 BC--Pharaoh Thutmoses VI dies, succeeded by Seti V.

70 BC-62 BC--First Roman Civil War. During this period, Roman exiles flee to
Egypt, and Pharaoh Seti V reorganizes his infantry on the Roman model, using
their technical expertise. Phalanx abandoned, legion adopted. Unlike the
Romans, however, Egypt retains it’s strong cavalry and archer
contingents...army composition is Legionary Infantry (pilum, short sword)--40%, Foot Archers--20%, Armored Cataphract Cavalry (lance and bow)--30%, Light Horse Archers--10%.

62 BC-40 BC--In the aftermath of the First Roman Civil War, a Triumverate of
powerful Roman Generals has emerged, and in alliance, rule the Republic.
These are Gaius Julius Caesar, Gnaius Pompeius Magnus (“Pompey”), and
Marcus Licinius Crassus. Period of Roman expansion. An uneasy peace
between Rome and Parthia in the east allows Rome to expand at the expense of it’s barbarian neighbors to the north, east, and south. In 60 BC, Julius Caesar is elected Consul. Under his leadership Germany is conquered to the line of the Oder River. Meanwhile Pompey conquers the Dacians in what is OTL Romania, and Crassus invades and conquers Britain up to the line of the Firth of Forth.

40 BC-34 BC--Second Roman Civil War. Crassus is killed in battle in Britain in
40 BC. The Triumverate breaks up and war breaks out between Caesar and
Pompey. Caesar is eventually victorious, but is assassinated soon after. Power now lies in the hands of one of Caesar’s generals, Mark Antony, and his nephew and adopted heir, Octavian. The two form an uneasy alliance, and for a few brief years, peace reigns in the Roman lands.

40 BC-35 BC--Egypt at war with Parthia. King Phraates IV of Parthia invades
Egypt’s Syrian provinces in 40 BC. The newly reorganized Egyptian army meets the Parthian host in battle and inflicts a sharp defeat on it, forcing it to retreat from Egyptian territory. The Parthians try again for each of the next five years, but with the same results. Egypt, which has no interest in further expansion in Asia, is finally able to bring the Parthians to the negotiating table after a particularly bloody defeat of the Parthian army at Damascus in 35 BC. However, periodic border raids by the Parthians will continue for the next few decades, despite the “official” peace between the two empires.

33 BC--Pharaoh Seti V dies, succeeded by Psamtik XI.

30-27 BC--Third Roman Civil War, when the uneasy alliance between
Octavian and Antony finally breaks down. Fall of the Republic. Antony is
defeated and killed, Octavian Caesar declared the first Roman Emperor, takes
the name Caesar Augustus.

10 BC--Pharaoh Psamtik XI dies, succeeded by Necho X.

2 BC-31 AD--Second Parthian War between Rome and Parthia. After sitting on the fence for most of the war, in 29 AD Egypt allies itself with Rome. This
decisively tips the balance, and Parthia loses Asia Minor to Rome. Egypt
reclaims it’s lands taken from it by the Ptolemies in the Third Punic War, putting the border of the Egyptian Empire back on the Euphrates.

4 BC--Yeshua born in Bethlehem, province of Yehud.

12 AD--Pharaoh Necho X dies, succeeded by Ahmosi V.

30 AD--Yeshua called to ministry. 12 Disciples join him.

33 AD--Yeshua attacks vendors in Temple at Jerusalem during Passover
celebration. Accused of Blasphemy by Sanhedrin, tried, convicted and
executed. Body disappears from tomb 3 days later. Disciples claim to have
seen Yeshua, risen from the dead, begin making converts.

40 AD--Pharaoh Ahmosi V dies childless. The next in line to the throne is
second cousin who lives in Sais, but the throne is usurped by an army general
from Thebes who is also a cousin (but more distantly) of the deceased Pharaoh. This general takes the royal name of Wahibre II, founding the 29th Dynasty. Also in this year, most of the “Maschiachim” (Christians) are driven out of Yehud by the Jewish authorities. Communities are formed in Syria, Mesopotamia, Asia Minor, Egypt, Athens, Arabia and Rome over the next few years. The new religion begins to spread.

50 AD-75 AD--Third Parthian War between Rome and Parthia. King Vologeses
I of Parthia invades Asia Minor. Rome seeks an alliance with Egypt, but is
turned down by Pharaoh Wahibre II, who has plenty to keep him busy at home
as he consolidates his rule and stamps out rebellions by supporters of the
legitimate heirs to the throne. After a quarter century of war, Parthia retakes Asia Minor. Both sides are exhausted, and an uneasy peace will reign over the region for the next 75 years.

64 AD--A great fire burns much of Rome to the ground. The Emperor Nero, who is widely suspected of starting the blaze himself so as to clear land for his new palace, accuses the Christians and begins a bloody persecution. However, the bravery of the Christians as they face martyrdom merely strengthens the new religion, and it continues to grow despite Nero’s brutality. The persecutions end when Nero commits suicide in 68 AD, but will recur under later emperors.

60-100 AD--Christian Gospels composed and set down in writing.

90 AD--The grandson of the legitimate heir to the throne of Egypt, whose place was usurped by Wahibre II in 40 AD, leads a revolt. After a short civil war lasting less than a year, Wahibre is overthrown and the 28th Dynasty is restored. The new king takes the royal name of Rameses XVII.

100-300 AD--Christianity continues to spread, despite persecutions, in both the Roman and Parthian Empires. In the Egyptian Empire, the policy of religious tolerance continues to be practiced, so no persecutions take place there. Christianity makes it's greatest inroads in the Roman Empire, where, by 300 AD, it has nearly a million adherents. In both the Parthian and Egyptian Empires, however, strong competitor religions offering the same promise of eternal life and spiritual resurrection, Zoroastrianism/Mithraism in Parthia and the cult of Osiris and Isis in Egypt, prevent Christianity from making much headway in those lands. Indeed, in Egypt, a strange hybrid develops, as the Egyptians gradually absorb Yeshua and Mary into their religion as new incarnations of Osiris and Isis. A bizarre version of the Christian Trinity will finally emerge in Egypt...with Yeshua identified with both Osiris AND his son, Horus (similar to "The Father and the Son" portion of the OTL Christian Trinity) and Mary (identified as Isis) forming the third part of the Trinity. One effect all this does have on the Egyptian religion is to elevate Osirus, Isis, and Horus to the supreme position in the Egyptian pantheon. The other Egyptian deities come to be regarded as more akin to angels than as actual deities, and the importance of their cults declines accordingly. Of course, the version of "Christianity" which thus takes root in Egypt has very little in common with Christianity practiced elsewhere.

100-105 AD: Border war between Rome and Egypt flares up, but ends
inconclusively.

128 AD--Pharaoh Rameses XVII dies, succeeded by Rameses XVIII.

142 AD--Pharaoh Rameses XVIII dies, succeeded by Necho XI.

150 AD--Pharaoh Necho XI dies, succeeded by Seti VI.

150 AD-160 AD--Fourth Parthian War between Rome and Parthia. Egypt
secretly finances both sides, and the war finally peters out inconclusively after ten years of fighting.

155-159 AD--Kushite Revolt. Prince Taharka briefly throws out the Egyptian
garrisons and establishes independent Kushite kingdom, but Pharaoh Seti’s
armies succeed in re-establishing Egyptian control within four years. Egypt
discovers that the Kushite rebels were financed by Parthia, chilling relations
between the two empires.

191 AD--Pharaoh Seti VI dies, succeeded by Thutmoses VII.

197 AD--Pharaoh Thutmoses VII secretly forms an alliance with Rome against
Parthia.

199 AD-220 AD--Fifth Parthian War between Rome and Parthia. Egypt is allied
with Rome, and Parthia, despite fanatical resistance, is inexorably beaten back. Finally, severely weakened, King Artavasdes of Parthia sues for peace in 220 AD. In a humiliating peace treaty, Parthia cedes Asia Minor and Armenia to Rome, while Egypt takes Mesopotamia. Parthia falls into political turmoil shortly afterward.

203 AD--Pharaoh Thutmoses VII dies, succeeded by Psamtik XII. Psamtik XII
continues the policies of his predecessor, and the war with Parthia continues.

224 AD--Ardashir I, chieftain of the Sassanid dynasty in the province of Persis, overthrows the King Artavasdes of Parthia. Sassanid Persian Empire
established. The new dynasty is very aggressive, and holds dreams of
re-establishing control over the full extent of the lands held by the old Achmaenid Persian empire. This does not bode well for peace in the region.
 
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here is a map to go with the next installment of the timeline...

egyptmap4.jpg
 
Africa

If Eygpt controls the whole east coast of Africa, Traders, missionaries, and Adventurers whould start moving westward. There weren't all that large a Population in the Areas. a Slow growth over several Hundred Years..........:cool:
 
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