[DISCUSSION] The Umayyad Caliphate wins the siege of Constantinople (717-718)

[AdamNeuser]

The Siege of Constantinople in 717 AD was the Umayyad Caliphate's major combined arms offensive against the Roman Empire. And one of the largest sea and land military operations across the entire medieval era.

The decision to lay siege to the city came about mostly as a result of an extended long tug of war over dominating Anatolia between the two regional superpowers, which involved raiding parties into each other's territory. Whilst it isn't clear whether or not the Umayyads actually planned on annexing all of Antolia and Constantinople entirely, it is apparent that the aim was to completely shatter the Roman hold over the region in a single campaign, and solve the entire Anatolian question in one fell swoop.

In effect, a successful siege of the city would secure their northern borders from raids from the Roman Empire, and essentially put the Umayyads in the superior diplomatic position and establish them as the dominant force in Anatolia, by severely weakening Roman control over the region.

What I want to start a discussion about is, considering the geo-political situation at the time, and the nature of the Umayyad state, how might they have capitalised on this victory. What would the short term and if they can be reasonably predicted, the long term consequences be?

 

[haider najib]

Short term it gives a huge boost to umayyad legitimacy, as the muslim world saught to take the city and who ever did was promised heaven. Long term may do more harm especially if anatolia starts to become muslim.

Umayyad finances will still be in trouble so trying to tax new lands will be important this war coast alot for the umayyads.

Sicily will be interesting it still falls to the romans but if some of muslim navy survive they can retake it. So byzantine arab conflict may be more focused on sicily now.

 

[Alias]

Short term it gives a huge boost to umayyad legitimacy, as the muslim world saught to take the city and who ever did was promised heaven. Long term may do more harm especially if anatolia starts to become muslim.

Umayyad finances will still be in trouble so trying to tax new lands will be important this war coast alot for the umayyads.

Sicily will be interesting it still falls to the romans but if some of muslim navy survive they can retake it. So byzantine arab conflict may be more focused on sicily now.

By harm do you mean for the Byzantines or the Umayyad?

 

[haider najib]

By harm do you mean for the Byzantines or the Umayyad?

Umayyads sorry as they preffered arabs over general muslims adding a new group of non-arab muslims means a new group pissed at the umayyads. Hell abbasids were a persian arab dynasty maybe there more greek here if the greek muslims throw there support behind them.

 

[HotSauce]

Umayyads sorry as they preffered arabs over general muslims adding a new group of non-arab muslims means a new group pissed at the umayyads. Hell abbasids were a persian arab dynasty maybe there more greek here if the greek muslims throw there support behind them.

But a whole new group of Muslims instead of Christians would change history almost unrecognisably. Anyway, I'm sure a new group of at most a few million could not destabilise the Caliphate entirely, a civil war was always going to happen, but the worst-case scenario is that they become independent. Probably forming a new Islamic state (if they have been converted by then) and having huge knock-on effects on history

 

[haider najib]

But a whole new group of Muslims instead of Christians would change history almost unrecognisably. Anyway, I'm sure a new group of at most a few million could not destabilise the Caliphate entirely, a civil war was always going to happen, but the worst-case scenario is that they become independent. Probably forming a new Islamic state (if they have been converted by then) and having huge knock-on effects on history

It won't destabilise put place more pressure which led to the third fitna.

 

[Silver01]

Over the centuries anatolia becomes Muslim like all the early conquest of the Muslims
However they become Muslims but Greek and Roman culture stays
Arab culture only became dominant in place who had no strong native culture to lach on to

2) the Bulgars being fresh of the steppe and seeing the caliphate as the superpower would convert to Islam so much of the Balkans are converted

3) rebelion still happend seeing the distance and the power of the area

We have 3 possibilities

The abassids take everything except Spain (unlikely af)

The abassids take almost what they had in the olt Byzantine caliphate takes anatolia and the surroundings region

3) with a civil war the bulgars take advantage and take Constantinople migrating to Anatolia as well ( they planned to do this in our timeline but the Romans stopped them )

As for what comes next do to geography and food

You can make a General rule of who converts to chirstianity and Islam

Forrest tribes who need alcohol to preserve wheat and most of their meat came from pork would convert to chirstianity.

And steppe tribes to Islam .

The Russians are a tricky one they like the Germanic Forrest tribes relied on alchol for wheat preservation and pork was a important

Ao I say they have more chances to take chirstianity rather then a heretical branch of islam.

Going back to the mediterian
The Muslims conquer italy the Byzantines where the only real naval power with out them italy extends out to the mediterian making it a perfect Target for Muslims

The reconquista would also be impossible with Muslim control of the mediterian the only part I see a reconquista happening is north italy and only north italy

 

[inawarminister]

Wait wait, there's a potential for the Abbasid revolution to be butterflied if the Second Siege was successful, because of the Caliph at this time, Umar ibn Abdul Aziz, was against the Arab supremacism of the Umayyads:

He continued the welfare programs of the last few Umayyad caliphs, expanding them and including special programs for orphans and the destitute. He would also abolish the jizya tax for converts to Islam, who were former dhimmis, who used to be taxed even after they had converted under other Umayyad rulers.

IOTL, after the failure of the Siege, the Umayyad nobles blamed him for it and assassinated him, then the next Caliph (Yazid II) reinstituted the jizya tax for new converts, sparking the rebellions.

A more prestigious Umar II reign could avert it all. We'll see. Might be a good TL idea.

 

[Nivek]

Wait wait, there's a potential for the Abbasid revolution to be butterflied if the Second Siege was successful, because of the Caliph at this time, Umar ibn Abdul Aziz, was against the Arab supremacism of the Umayyads:


IOTL, after the failure of the Siege, the Umayyad nobles blamed him for it and assassinated him, then the next Caliph (Yazid II) reinstituted the jizya tax for new converts, sparking the rebellions.

A more prestigious Umar II reign could avert it all. We'll see. Might be a good TL idea.

The Impact is massive, seriously the butterflies can be unacountable, we could see shia islam butterfly away and maybe a greco-roman equivalent take form in Anatolia-greece archipelago, that would be ITTL 'shia/ortodhox'

 

[Anawrahta]

Greece would be part of Asia I think.

 

[Alexander the Average]

Wait wait, there's a potential for the Abbasid revolution to be butterflied if the Second Siege was successful, because of the Caliph at this time, Umar ibn Abdul Aziz, was against the Arab supremacism of the Umayyads:


IOTL, after the failure of the Siege, the Umayyad nobles blamed him for it and assassinated him, then the next Caliph (Yazid II) reinstituted the jizya tax for new converts, sparking the rebellions.

A more prestigious Umar II reign could avert it all. We'll see. Might be a good TL idea.

Would also go a long way to preventing the Berber Revolt which would mean a stronger Caliphal presence in North Africa and Spain.

 

[Silver01]

Greece would be part of Asia I think.

I think all the Balkans would be as well

 

[Alexander the Average]

Greece would be part of Asia I think.

I think all the Balkans would be as well

Alternatively the Levant, North Africa and Middle East are regarded as being a part of Europe.

 

[jocay]

Depending on how much more land the Umayyad can take from the Romans and Bulgars, the Caliphal capital is going to move from Damascus to Constantinople. The focus is going to be subjugating the Bulgars and the Slavic tribes that have penetrated Greece. Conquest is likely to happen given the resources that the Caliphate has but it won't be easy. As for the Abbasids there may not be an impetus for them to lead the revolution but the Iranian element will be alienated. Islam will have a more Greco-Roman influence; figurative art may be allowed under a more Europeanized Caliphate.

The Exarch in Ravenna likely declares himself Emperor, moves the capital ironically back to Rome and transfers as many remaining Byzantine troops and civilian populations to consolidate their hold in Italy.

 

[Silver01]

Depending on how much more land the Umayyad can take from the Romans and Bulgars, the Caliphal capital is going to move from Damascus to Constantinople. The focus is going to be subjugating the Bulgars and the Slavic tribes that have penetrated Greece. Conquest is likely to happen given the resources that the Caliphate has but it won't be easy. As for the Abbasids there may not be an impetus for them to lead the revolution but the Iranian element will be alienated. Islam will have a more Greco-Roman influence; figurative art may be allowed under a more Europeanized Caliphate.

The Exarch in Ravenna likely declares himself Emperor, moves the capital ironically back to Rome and transfers as many remaining Byzantine troops and civilian populations to consolidate their hold in Italy.

i think it will be the other way around once the caliphate declines the muslims bulgars will invade with the muslims slavs

i also mentioned that italy is most likely conquered since the ERE is the last naval power with it the mediterrenian becomes a muslim lake

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

@Goldensilver81

With all do respect, the Abbasid and its predecessor, the Umayyad Caliphate did not operate as this. They did not promote these states and people outside of their realm to convert, nor did they imagine that they could in the respect of Islamic Law. Generally speaking, in Islamic law that is traditional, all Muslims are subjects of the Caliph, as are all kings and rulers likewise his subject. It is not a case wherein the states exterior may convert to Islam and be their own Khagan and not be made a vassal at least in how the Caliph refers to them. Until the year 1258, the Abbasid caliph still claimed overlordship over every Islamic ruler and most Islamic rulers still minted coins in the name of the Abbasid liege lord.

A conversion of the Bulgars would be ridiculous.... They are among the strong, they have enemies among the Muslim to their south as the Umayyad strike the Bulgars from the south. Bulgar powers, who were strong, have a number of choices. They can maintain their Polytheistic steppe traditions and wage war upon the Umayyad alongside the Khazar to the north in the sense that they continually seek loot and carve out vassal realms from the Umayyad ruled Europe. Or, they can convert to Christianity and attempt to garner support from the local Greek populace and Slavic populaces. They however, will not submit to the Muslims and will not convert to Islam, the notion was a foreign concept to both parties as the Umayyad believed conversion to Islam required likewise vassalage under the Caliph.

So no, the Bulgars and the Khazar will resist the Umayyad with a great passion. In otl, the Umayyad had issues with these steppe foes, especially the Celestial Turk remnants and their successors, the Bulgars, Khazars and Pechenegs in the west. In this tl, the Umayyad gain in power, but do extend themselves into a more hostile territory and wars therein will be difficult.

 

[Nivek]

Depending on how much more land the Umayyad can take from the Romans and Bulgars, the Caliphal capital is going to move from Damascus to Constantinople. The focus is going to be subjugating the Bulgars and the Slavic tribes that have penetrated Greece. Conquest is likely to happen given the resources that the Caliphate has but it won't be easy. As for the Abbasids there may not be an impetus for them to lead the revolution but the Iranian element will be alienated. Islam will have a more Greco-Roman influence; figurative art may be allowed under a more Europeanized Caliphate.

The Exarch in Ravenna likely declares himself Emperor, moves the capital ironically back to Rome and transfers as many remaining Byzantine troops and civilian populations to consolidate their hold in Italy.

That is why i think the second major branch of islam here will be heavily greco-roman influence, displacing or taking the place of Shia ITTL

 

[Silver01]

@Goldensilver81

With all do respect, the Abbasid and its predecessor, the Umayyad Caliphate did not operate as this. They did not promote these states and people outside of their realm to convert, nor did they imagine that they could in the respect of Islamic Law. Generally speaking, in Islamic law that is traditional, all Muslims are subjects of the Caliph, as are all kings and rulers likewise his subject. It is not a case wherein the states exterior may convert to Islam and be their own Khagan and not be made a vassal at least in how the Caliph refers to them. Until the year 1258, the Abbasid caliph still claimed overlordship over every Islamic ruler and most Islamic rulers still minted coins in the name of the Abbasid liege lord.

A conversion of the Bulgars would be ridiculous.... They are among the strong, they have enemies among the Muslim to their south as the Umayyad strike the Bulgars from the south. Bulgar powers, who were strong, have a number of choices. They can maintain their Polytheistic steppe traditions and wage war upon the Umayyad alongside the Khazar to the north in the sense that they continually seek loot and carve out vassal realms from the Umayyad ruled Europe. Or, they can convert to Christianity and attempt to garner support from the local Greek populace and Slavic populaces. They however, will not submit to the Muslims and will not convert to Islam, the notion was a foreign concept to both parties as the Umayyad believed conversion to Islam required likewise vassalage under the Caliph.

So no, the Bulgars and the Khazar will resist the Umayyad with a great passion. In otl, the Umayyad had issues with these steppe foes, especially the Celestial Turk remnants and their successors, the Bulgars, Khazars and Pechenegs in the west. In this tl, the Umayyad gain in power, but do extend themselves into a more hostile territory and wars therein will be difficult.

its ok but i desagree with the convertion of the bulgars by 717 the bulgars where still a steppe tribe who was slowly becoming a more settled people , the bulgars would see the muslims caliphate as the power and most advanced society

i think to the distance the most likely outcome is the islamic world would divided in 3 the the uyameds who remaind in spain the abassids and the ( i dont know what to call it ) the greeks caliphate or emirate

and this byzantine caliphate (or emirate) would most likely follow another sect of islam allowing the bulgars to convert in the same time as the OTL

Assuming no greek power splits off in the 8th century

once the caliphate goes in decline by 900 AD i could see something similar happening to the volga bulgars

i mean true the abassids claimed power but in reality the muslims power only gave lip service to the caliph and the turks even turned him in to a puppet

also from who are the bulgars going to get support from the chirstians ? italy most likely gets invaded since with no romans all the muslims would have naval supremacy, charlagmane would be to busy etc

i fact i also said once the caliphate desintegrates the bulgars most likely take greece and western anatolia

if they had not coverted by that piont i think they would have been assimilated if they did conquer these muslim territories

 

[Nivek]

Wonder how getting costantinople early(will be renamed or keep the name?) might affect the faris. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furusiyya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippiatrica

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

its ok but i desagree with the convertion of the bulgars by 717 the bulgars where still a steppe tribe who was slowly becoming a more settled people , the bulgars would see the muslims caliphate as the power and most advanced society

i think to the distance the most likely outcome is the islamic world would divided in 3 the the uyameds who remaind in spain the abassids and the ( i dont know what to call it ) the greeks caliphate or emirate

and this byzantine caliphate (or emirate) would most likely follow another sect of islam allowing the bulgars to convert in the same time as the OTL

Assuming no greek power splits off in the 8th century

once the caliphate goes in decline by 900 AD i could see something similar happening to the volga bulgars

i mean true the abassids claimed power but in reality the muslims power only gave lip service to the caliph and the turks even turned him in to a puppet

also from who are the bulgars going to get support from the chirstians ? italy most likely gets invaded since with no romans all the muslims would have naval supremacy, charlagmane would be to busy etc

i fact i also said once the caliphate desintegrates the bulgars most likely take greece and western anatolia

if they had not coverted by that piont i think they would have been assimilated if they did conquer these muslim territories

It was not a claim, the Muslim states submitted by way of minting coins in their image and paying them tribute. Only the Kwarezmshahs were resistant to this custom and they were defeated by the Abbasids in war and later the Abbasids supported the Mongols in destroying the Kwarezmshah state. Likewise, the Mongols perceived the Abbasids to be the foremost power in the Islamic world, hence why they addressed the Caliph as their equal, yet referred to the Kwarezmshahs as their inferiors. Abbasid powers were also strong enough to be referred to by the Delhi Sultanates as their liege lords. Caliphal legitimacy and rulers of Islamic lands not submitted to the Abbasid house, lost their throne or built their legitimacy upon factors other than submission and ultimately under a non-Islamic motif, such as the Ottomans, the other Turkic Beylicks, the Almohads, the Timuro-Mughals, etc etc etc....

Once more, the Bulgars have no reason to convert. They are strong and powerful, the Umayyads are unlikely to conquer them so easily and should they, the Turkic Bulgars flee westward or northward and seek aid from the Khazars, who in otl, penetrated deep into Umayyad territory before forcing the Umayyads into a disastrous Steppe campaign that gained only a lip service Khazar vassalage which the Khazar broke the next year.

Bulgars would not view the Umayyads as advanced. The steppe folk such as the Celestial Turks, with whom the Bulgars were part of, viewed the sedentary peoples as prey and opportunities to loot, pillage and capture from them tribute. To them the notion of what they have economically is only interesting insofar as they can be taken from. The Umayyads understood this, hence why they had no pretense of friendly relations with these steppe people, instead attacking them at every chance they could in the east and north; there was no assumption that these peoples could be converted by any means other than the sword.

Thus, just as no Turkic group on the Islamic east ,convert, so too would be the same in the northwest. The Umayyads and Abbasids had been ascendant in the east in ways similar to what would be the case had they taken Constantinople, yet the Karluks, Tibetans, Neo-Sogdians, Neo-Scythians, Uyghur, Qhara-Qhitan, etc etc, did not convert to Islam, for they understood Islam as part of a wider socio-imperial complex. Only whence the Turks began entering Islam through slave trading, adoptions and general forcible application of Turkic horsemen into Abbasid government positions, did Islam become common amongst them.