[ONGOING] What REALLY would have happened if the Ottomans won the siege of Vienna 1529

Now I know what most of you are thinking. You've probably seen this scenario/POD dozens of times on this forum. But the reason why I think it deserves a better assessment is that most of the time the answers to this generally misunderstand the aims and state which the Ottoman Empire was in. Generally viewing it as an indefinitely expanding polity rather than one based around conquest, consolidation and control over different regions.

Take for example this REALLY INACCURATE alt-map of Europe following a successful siege of the city.

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The problem isn't exclusive to this reddit map, but is common all the time when discussing alt-history scenarios regarding this POD. Most explanations don't really seem to understand what the aims of the Ottoman Empire actually were in either siege of Vienna. Most responses you've see usually go along the lines of pointing out how the ottomans were supposedly overextended thus taking vienna and pushing further into Europe would have just made things worse for them logistically, or depicting central germany as the new massive battleground between the forces of 'Islam' and 'Christendom', like the above map does.

Here are other examples of threads making a similar mistake when talking about this:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/vienna-falls-to-suleiman-29-11-1529.76513/
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/wi-vienna-falls-to-the-ottomans-in-1529.423277/

If we specifically focus on the first siege of Vienna in 1529, Suleiman's aim does not appear to have been to annex Vienna and/or push further into Germany in either one of the two sieges. More realistically it seems that the aim of the empire revolved forcing the Hapsburgs into an open battlefield conflict and around securing their control over Hungary. By 1529, Suleiman had in theory occupied most of Hungary however the Hapsburgs still had some control over the populous northern regions (later Royal Hungary).

In order to solve this issue, and fully conquer all of Hungary, Suleiman sought to solve the entire Hapsburg Hungarian question in one fell swoop by shattering the Hapsburg hold over Hungary in a single campaign. Thus severely weakening the Hapsburg Empire and solidify his own control over the region.

His failure to do this meant that the Ottoman conquest of Hungary was delayed and his true decisive move to conquer the region wouldn't come until 1541 with the siege of Buda and the subsequent gradual push northwards known as the 'little war' and the wrestling of most of Hungary from the Hapsburgs, as well as the consolidation of these conquests with the treaty of Edirne in 1568. And even then, whilst he did end up conquering most of the region, the northern regions were still controlled by the Hapsburgs and became known as 'Royal Hungary.'

This is roughly what it looked like in 1572. As we can see, the Hapsburgs still controlled the northern regions of Hungary:
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Here's another less accurate but still understandable map distinguishing Hapsburg Hungary from Ottoman Hungary:

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Had Suleiman been successful in his 1529 campaign and managed to win the siege of Vienna, it is likely that he would have conquered and consolidated his control over ALL of Hungary, rather than having to fight an extended war later with the Hapsburgs, subsequently having to divide it between the two empires, and would have also likely have done this far sooner than in our timeline as well.

As to the other short and long term consequences of this; The Hapsburg Empire in Europe would have been severely weakened at least temporarily with the occupation of their capital and being cut off from its Hungarian possessions. The Ottomans would then focus on fortifying Hungary from the Hapsburgs as they did in our timeline. Except this time these fortifications would be further north, in what was known as 'Royal Hungary' in OT. Given how much closer this is to central Europe, it is also likely that they would have had a greater role to play in central European geo-politics.

Furthermore, it would mean that Suleiman could pay more attention to his eastern rivals the safavids, who went to war with them in 1532, since he wouldn't be varying his attention between two theatres of war. The war with the safavids lasted until 1555 and was an ottoman victory. Therefore it is possible that he could have concluded this war sooner and perhaps forced more concessions in the peace of amasya in 1555.

It is hard to say how the later 'Long Turkish War' at the end of the 16th century would have played out, or if it would have even happened at all given that it was instigated by the governor of Bosnia who raided Croatia, leading the Hapsburgs to declare war.

If the long turkish war gets butterflied, then it is certainly likely that the Ottomans would have held onto their Iranian territories, which were conquered from the Safavids in the war of 1578-1590 which were lost to Shah Abbas I in the fourth safavid ottoman war (1603-1618), due to the ottomans again fighting against the hapsburgs and safavids at the same time.

If we assume that the Ottomans did manage to conquer all of Hungary following a successful siege in Vienna in 1529, could the Hapsburgs have eventually retaken any of it? Possibly.
 
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So the creator of that map thinks that once Vienna falls, all of the other Habsburg realms instantly become Ottoman? That's video game thinking, not realistic thinking.
 
So the creator of that map thinks that once Vienna falls, all of the other Habsburg realms instantly become Ottoman? That's video game thinking, not realistic thinking.

Indeed. It’s a neatly detailed fantasy history map. But I think that’s a problem with a lot of answers in regard to this scenario. They assume that the ottomans intended to actually annex Vienna and push further into Europe. When there’s little evidence to suggest that this was the aim of either of the overall campaigns.
 
In regard to the long term consequences for central Germany, I’m not too sure. I’d be interested to hear what others think. I’d say that there is a fairly good chance that a significant number of German states declare independence from the Hapsburg domination if the Ottomans won the siege. So there is the possibility that the Holy Roman Empire's control in central Germany is severely weakened and perhaps collapses earlier than in OT.

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The Ottomans could exploit this without actually annexing Vienna or anything further than the kingdom of Hungary by supporting the rebellious ones that are declaring independence in order to further weaken Hapsburg rule. Logistically and diplomatically speaking, I think this would make the most sense. It would allow the Ottomans time to consolidate their rule over all of Hungary and also keep the Hapsburgs pre-occupied with ensuring the stability of their severely weakened dominions in central Germany, thus making it more difficult for them to focus sufficient forces against the Ottomans directly.

However this assumes that Suleiman is not busy on other fronts. For example During the thirty years war, the Ottoman Empire was currently dealing with its own succession issues as well as the Safavids therefore they saw little action in the central european conflict.
 
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However, whilst the Hapsburg rule over Hungary would likely end, and control over germany weakened, Charles V at this point still rules over the Spanish Empire. I think Suleiman would most likely take on a more defensive and diplomatic approach to consolidating control over all of Hungary as stated, and would focus more attention on countering the Spanish domination of the Mediterranean through naval power. IN regard to how the naval conflict with Spain would change, it's hard to say. But I do think Suleiman would invest more into it during his reign, since so much of his resources wouldn't be being poured into pushing the Hapsburgs out of as much of Hungary as possible until 1566 like in our timeline. He still at this point has excellent naval admirals such as Hayreddin Barbarossa and Turgut Reis. Assuming their command over the ottoman navy isn't butterflied in this scenario, it is possible that they'd play an even more active role than they did in OT were Suleiman to pay even more attention to the Med during his rule.

More attention being subsequently focused on naval domination could potentially also allow the ottomans to concentrate their efforts against the Venetians. The Ottoman-Venetian war beginning in 1537 which came about as a result of Hayreddin's successful campaigns in the Mediterranean was an Ottoman victory, and saw decisive engagements such as the Battle of Preveza in 1538. In this AT, perhaps a greater portion of Dalmatia coming under the control of the Ottomans is another possibility?

As to whether this would lead to the Ottomans attempting to lay siege to Crete or Cyprus earlier than in OT as a result of more focus on the navy, I can't say, but it is a possibility.
 
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Side note:

I think it is also worth noting why many alternate history scenarios about this event tend to push really absurd and ridiculous outcomes. In short, they choose to focus their scenarios, ostensibly on portraying the Ottoman Empire not as one state competing among many others on the imperial stage, but as one uniquely devoted to conquest. At every turn Süleyman's motive for invading Europe is explained not as an attempt to accomplish a specific geopolitical objective, but as part of a larger plan to invade and conquer the entire European continent. Those familiar with Ottoman history are certainly familiar with this trope of pitting the Ottoman Empire against Europe in a sort of Early-Modern 'Clash of Civilizations.' Yet this is an idea which professional historians have been attempting to overturn for quite some time. Rifa'at 'Ali Abou-El-Haj in 1991 called for the "normalization" of Ottoman history in his book Formation of the Modern State: The Ottoman Empire, Sixteenth to Eighteenth Centuries (Syracuse University Press, 1991), and since then many historians have striven to demonstrate that the interplay between the Ottoman Empire and Christian Europe involved more than warfare and hostility (for instance, Suraiya Faroqhi, The Ottoman Empire and the World Around It (2007). Depiction of the Ottoman Empire simply as a conquest state, or as "a near-perfect military society," as it was once referred to by Peter Sugar, is now generally regarded as Eurocentric, for the Ottomans' real motives were pushed aside in favor of viewing them as obsessed with European conquests; and as Orientalistic, insofar as it pit Europe against the inscrutable "other" in the form of the Muslim world.
 
I'm pretty sure Ottoman Flanders beats it. Also, given that it seems all Habsburg realms fell to Ottoman control, we have Ottoman Mexico, Argentina or Peru.

Indeed. Also I just want to clarify for anyone else reading this that I don’t endorse that map at all. I was just using it as an example of a really absurd alternate scenario using the 1529 siege of Vienna as its POD.
 
I Think is a big hit for the austria/hasburg and might derail their empire forever(maybe wettis, wittelbasch and hohenzollern capitalize, with the prize of bohemia on play) but the rest...besides future Austria and Bohemian haremette...is hard to pinpoint
 
In regard to the long term consequences for central Germany, I’m not too sure. I’d be interested to hear what others think. I’d say that there is a fairly good chance that a significant number of German states declare independence from the Hapsburg domination if the Ottomans won the siege. So there is the possibility that the Holy Roman Empire's control in central Germany is severely weakened and perhaps collapses earlier than in OT.

I doubt any German states would declare independence if Vienna fell. First it was a strategic important city for access to Hungary. But it was pretty unimportant as a German city at the time, it wasn’t the capital of Germany or the HRE. Next pretty much none of the princes wanted independence, they wanted more power, but being part of the HRE also protected them against Denmark, France and Poland
 
I Think is a big hit for the austria/hasburg and might derail their empire forever(maybe wettis, wittelbasch and hohenzollern capitalize, with the prize of bohemia on play) but the rest...besides future Austria and Bohemian haremette...is hard to pinpoint

That’s certainly true. I think that it’s possible France and the Ottomans would try and take advantage on a diplomatic level to help encourage some of the smaller German states to rise up in order to divert the attention of the Hapsburg. Although I don’t think it would necessarily result in the Hapsburg being permanently unable to do anything. They would be able to recover it’s just them not holding Hungary would mean that they’re weaker than in OT.
 
I doubt any German states would declare independence if Vienna fell. First it was a strategic important city for access to Hungary. But it was pretty unimportant as a German city at the time, it wasn’t the capital of Germany or the HRE. Next pretty much none of the princes wanted independence, they wanted more power, but being part of the HRE also protected them against Denmark, France and Poland

I think when you put it that way it makes more sense. In which case I’m not too sure what the consequences would be for central Germany. Or if there even would be any significant ones.
 
I think when you put it that way it makes more sense. In which case I’m not too sure what the consequences would be for central Germany. Or if there even would be any significant ones.

The Ottomans taking Vienna would be a major crisis for the Habsburg and would force them to compromise earlier with the Lutherans, including the ones in their own domains. If Charles V have to compromise this early instead of late in his reign, it would be great as he avoid spending his entire life fighting them.
 
That’s certainly true. I think that it’s possible France and the Ottomans would try and take advantage on a diplomatic level to help encourage some of the smaller German states to rise up in order to divert the attention of the Hapsburg. Although I don’t think it would necessarily result in the Hapsburg being permanently unable to do anything. They would be able to recover it’s just them not holding Hungary would mean that they’re weaker than in OT.
Pretty unlikely. Losing (and most likely getting back) Vienna in the long run will have more positive than negative consequences for the Habsburg.
The Ottomans taking Vienna would be a major crisis for the Habsburg and would force them to compromise earlier with the Lutherans, including the ones in their own domains. If Charles V have to compromise this early instead of late in his reign, it would be great as he avoid spending his entire life fighting them.
Exactly. And compromising with the Lutherans now will likely end the wars with them who is bad news for France (who has just lost the Italian Wars). Plus I wonder if the fall of Vienna can prevent the birth of the Anglican Church who will happen just a couple of years later... In 1530/1 Henry VIII was still trying to get his annulment from the Pope, while starting to explore alternatives who would free him from Rome...

Losing permanently Vienna would imply a move of the Habsburg capital, likely to Prague...
Still an Ottoman Hungary combined with some butterflies who prevented Mary I of England’s reign can have another interesting effect on Germany, if Maria of Spain inherit the Netherlands instead of her brother and Maximilian II establish his main seat there (instead of the recovered but too dangerous Vienna or Prague)
 
The Ottomans taking Vienna would be a major crisis for the Habsburg and would force them to compromise earlier with the Lutherans, including the ones in their own domains. If Charles V have to compromise this early instead of late in his reign, it would be great as he avoid spending his entire life fighting them.

I think this appears to be the most likely scenario. Although it would also be interesting to see if Charles V would compromise on not being able to rule any of Hungary in this TL.
 
Pretty unlikely. Losing (and most likely getting back) Vienna in the long run will have more positive than negative consequences for the Habsburg.

Exactly. And compromising with the Lutherans now will likely end the wars with them who is bad news for France (who has just lost the Italian Wars). Plus I wonder if the fall of Vienna can prevent the birth of the Anglican Church who will happen just a couple of years later... In 1530/1 Henry VIII was still trying to get his annulment from the Pope, while starting to explore alternatives who would free him from Rome...

Losing permanently Vienna would imply a move of the Habsburg capital, likely to Prague...
Still an Ottoman Hungary combined with some butterflies who prevented Mary I of England’s reign can have another interesting effect on Germany, if Maria of Spain inherit the Netherlands instead of her brother and Maximilian II establish his main seat there (instead of the recovered but too dangerous Vienna or Prague)

Yeah good point. I think that’s mostly true.

In hindsight regarding my OP, I’d say It's not clear what would have happened in 1529, because historians still disagree over what Ottoman policy toward Hungary was. Some maintain that the Ottomans wanted to annex Hungary and others only that they wanted to establish Hungary as a vassal state, and only began to annex it in 1541 when it became clear that it was not able to withstand the Habsburgs on its own.

In either case, by 1529 the Ottomans weren't ready to annex Hungary yet, even if they were ultimately planning to do so. The goal of the 1529 campaign was therefore to solve the Hungarian issue in one fell swoop. Whether they would try to keep Vienna afterwards, I can't say. It's also worth emphasizing the campaign's ideological component: the conflict with the Habsburgs had by this time ceased to be a purely material struggle, as both sides had begun to compete with one another ideologically for world sovereignty. Showing their ability to strike at the Habsburg capital, and the Habsburgs' failure to meet the Ottoman army in open battle, served Ottoman propaganda, even if the campaign was ultimately a failure.
 
Well is not like Karl ever ruled any part of Hungary in all his life in OTL and Ferdinand (who was the German rule there, as he ruled the Austrian lands and Bohemia and claimed Hungary, while Charles there was the Holy Roman Emperor and ruler of only Burgundy) was much more amenable to compromises than him...
 
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Never knew the aim of the Vienna Campaign. Seeing as the Ottomans were more interested in consolidating their rule in Hungary rather than expanding into Germany, I'd say the immediate aftermath of a successful siege is a sack of the city.

Medium term, The Habsburgs have lost most of their credibility as rulers of the Holy Roman Empire and the authority of the same is severely weakened. The Spanish Habsburgs will probably become the more prominent branch, perhaps hanging their Austrian cousins out to dry and marrying outside of the family to secure their borders and hereditary holdings.
 
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