The Death of Göring and the Victory of the Luftwaffe
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Mr.Bluenote said:And with my usual delays and dallying about, viola, one new installment - Retooling for More War!As always, I'm sorry for the delay, but the weather has been simply marvellous here in Denmark, and just to hot to spend too much time indoors!
I kinda used this post to recapitulate a bit on Luftwaffe strategies and new planes - afterall it is a Luftwaffe-thread -, and weaponry. Hope it's not to borring. The Eastern War should kick off in the next post!
And thank you all very much for all your comments and musings on the New Britain! I seriously like the idea of a rather Cromwellian/puritan Britain being the much talked about distorted mirror image of OTL's Soviet Union. I hope you don't mind if I, ah, borrow the Bruxelles Pact-name, Kalvan?
My regards!
- Bluenote.
Awesome update Mr. BN! Always get a kick out of reading TTL.
Just if I might offer up a suggestion? Since the Germans seem to be doing just about everything right how about you let them make a seemingly rational decision that comes to bite them back in the ass?
For example getting rid or substantially reducing their horse cavalry divisions. Which will hamper them quite a bit in the rugged terrain of the Soviet Union in places where there was little to no infrastructure to support mechanized warfare for any real length of time.
If you want to be even more nasty about those Bruxelles Pact. Why not partition Germany into British occupied aged-old Prussia in the north and Catholic dominated Southern German Conferderation united with Austria in the south. Marginally killed the idea of a united Germany.Of course, all of this could wait until the Eastern War is over and two old evils is destroyed by the new one.
On the eastern war, it like that the German will be occupied for a while, Baltic, Ukraine, crushing the Red Army, rushing to Moscow etc. etc. Their tasks are overwhelming indeed! The French, Danes, Dutch will find their economy being drained to the Third Reich once the war kick in for a while. Again, not helping in endearing the public to the German cause. If that was possible in the first place.
On the eastern war, it like that the German will be occupied for a while, Baltic, Ukraine, crushing the Red Army, rushing to Moscow etc. etc. Their tasks are overwhelming indeed! The French, Danes, Dutch will find their economy being drained to the Third Reich once the war kick in for a while. Again, not helping in endearing the public to the German cause. If that was possible in the first place.
Thank you, Birdie! Glad to hear it!birdie said:looks good, cant wait to see what happens in Russia
Hehe, and in Soviet Russia?! Well, a lot of sceaming, yelling and dying accompanied by the loud roar of German made aeroengines, I suspect!
Thanks, SK!Shadow Knight said:
Of couse you may, SK! Your ideas are always more than welcome. Well, I have a few ideas for messing with Germanys otherwise very well laid plans; mud, dust and good old Adolf.Shadow Knight said:
Oddly, one of my nasty suprises for the Germans involve horses. Apparantly the German/European horses often caught a sort of lung disease when inhaling the dust in Soviet Russia.
Another is Hitler throwing a fit when he at a visit to a forward supply dump finds hundreds of aeroengines neatly packed and ready for use when needed. As a result Luftwaffe funding takes a dive since they apparently have more means than needed, and both Milch and Kesselring get a mark in the Führer's black book.
Oh, and the lack of proper dust filters will hurt a bit to, once the mud dries up...
Indded, the great Eastern War!M.Passit said:
My idea is for the various fractions to each pull the Wehrmacht, or try to, in whatever direction they find best at the time, so while som Nazi-officials try to enlist locals to help the German cause, others slaughter villages wholesale and so on.
The Heer is forced to attack both the Ukraine and Moscow - where a furious and prolonged urban war within the war will rage on and on -, while the Kriegmarine assaults the Baltic and perhaps try an amphibious landing at Kronstadt (is that even possible?).
Good idea. I was considering having New Britain annexing Hannover? It could be the "mirror image" of OTL Kaliningrad? Or Calaise could? I suppose our friend Mussolini will want in on the partitioning of Germany/Austria as well?!M.Passit said:If you want to be even more nasty about those Bruxelles Pact. Why not partition Germany into British occupied aged-old Prussia in the north and Catholic dominated Southern German Conferderation united with Austria in the south. Marginally killed the idea of a united Germany.Of course, all of this could wait until the Eastern War is over and two old evils is destroyed by the new one.
Regarding New Britain - I just recently read Moore's V for Vendetta and saw the movie yesterday, and somehow I found the Norsefire Britain to remind me of the New Britain of this ATL. Strength through Unity and all that!
I couldn't have said it better myself, Passit! Generally speaking I tend to think the Germans will win and win and win, but bleed themselves dry in the process. The USSR is a bloody big place, and so are its cities - a few Stalingrad-style urban battles in Moscow, Kiev, Leningrad and what have we and the Heer will lack men en masse!M.Passit said:
I hope to post the next part within long. Denmark is still hard hit by a heat wave and my time in front of my computer thus somewhat limited.
Thank you for all your comments! As said elsewhere. they are much appriciated!
Best regards!
- B.
Regarding New Britain, I think that once the peace reign, the fascist/ totalitarian mindset will tone down to some degree, after all, Britain has been a democratic society for a long period of time. But Britain and it's democracy will not be the same as before. Not to mention their outlook toward the world in general. Maybe something like exagerated and extreme post 9/11 U.S.? Paranoid, super-patriotic, uncaring except their own's security, prosperity and stability?
Also, this distorted mirror image idea is very cool, but I'm thinking that we may can also do something like a distorted mirror image of 'history repeating itself' too? That's the reason I suggesting partition Germany into Prussia and Southern German Confederation under Austria's aegis with Italian influence looming on the southern Horrizon. Somekind of distorted outcome of Austro-Prussian War and relation between Austria and still un-unified Italy in the past. Not to mention a New Britain having the image of a distorted and extreme post 9/11 U.S. Also, I think the Brit will rather go after Calais, just to slap the French in their faces. Hegioland from Prussia maybe?
Or.. A general peace signed at the Congress of Vienna that end WWII and reorganized Europe into a distorted balance, which magnified by the Bruxelles Pact between Britain and western Europe.
With Mussolini and partition of Germany. By this time, I think they will find that keeping the stability of Croatia and Serbia is not an easy task, not to mention keeping the Greek and the Bulgarian under control. So, Mussolini, or maybe his ministers, will not want to have a piece that have a large German population to add to their already mounting problems. Maybe, just a promise of gauranteed influence in the newly created Southern German Confederation and, not to mention, annexing Nice and some more French colonies, again, slapping the French in their faces.
Will the Baltic and the Ukrainian welcome their 'liberator'? If not, I can see the German, and Himmler, will have a feast activity in those area.
Also, this distorted mirror image idea is very cool, but I'm thinking that we may can also do something like a distorted mirror image of 'history repeating itself' too? That's the reason I suggesting partition Germany into Prussia and Southern German Confederation under Austria's aegis with Italian influence looming on the southern Horrizon. Somekind of distorted outcome of Austro-Prussian War and relation between Austria and still un-unified Italy in the past. Not to mention a New Britain having the image of a distorted and extreme post 9/11 U.S. Also, I think the Brit will rather go after Calais, just to slap the French in their faces. Hegioland from Prussia maybe?
Or..
A general peace signed at the Congress of Vienna that end WWII and reorganized Europe into a distorted balance, which magnified by the Bruxelles Pact between Britain and western Europe.With Mussolini and partition of Germany. By this time, I think they will find that keeping the stability of Croatia and Serbia is not an easy task, not to mention keeping the Greek and the Bulgarian under control. So, Mussolini, or maybe his ministers, will not want to have a piece that have a large German population to add to their already mounting problems. Maybe, just a promise of gauranteed influence in the newly created Southern German Confederation and, not to mention, annexing Nice and some more French colonies, again, slapping the French in their faces.
Will the Baltic and the Ukrainian welcome their 'liberator'? If not, I can see the German, and Himmler, will have a feast activity in those area.
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If Mussolini participates in the second round between Germany and UK, he'll want an occupation zone in Germany too. Which might well be Southern Germany and Austria, but by preference partitioned in a number of states rather than in a confederation that sooner or later will bring trouble on the northern border. Occupation in Germany was not very demanding in OTL, and should not be very demanding in TTL either. Maybe a bit more harsh in the north (which I see as an alternate mirror of the Russian occupied zone).
I cannot believe that UK will want Hannover. It would make more sense to keep a foothold on the Channel (Calais and the Pas-de-Calais region): this one would become TTL Kaliningrad.
Partisan guerrilla in the ex-Yugoslavia might go on until the end of the war.
Maybe, I'm not so sure. Without supplies and support, the guerrillas will wither more easily. In any case, I'd anticipate that garrison duty and security there will be the task of the militias of the new states created in the region (and possibly Hungarians and Bulgarians will be more hard pressed to keep their annexed areas free of insurgents).
New Britain is not likely to get better soon: I know, democratic traditions and all that. On the other hand, the defeat was bitter (a couple of order of magnitudes worse than the 9/11) and the new state is built on retribution. If you add the continuous festering of the Irish situation, as well as the imperial troubles, the forecast is quite bleak. UK will change, sooner or later; but IMO it will take a couple generations.
I cannot believe that UK will want Hannover. It would make more sense to keep a foothold on the Channel (Calais and the Pas-de-Calais region): this one would become TTL Kaliningrad.
Partisan guerrilla in the ex-Yugoslavia might go on until the end of the war.
Maybe, I'm not so sure. Without supplies and support, the guerrillas will wither more easily. In any case, I'd anticipate that garrison duty and security there will be the task of the militias of the new states created in the region (and possibly Hungarians and Bulgarians will be more hard pressed to keep their annexed areas free of insurgents).
New Britain is not likely to get better soon: I know, democratic traditions and all that. On the other hand, the defeat was bitter (a couple of order of magnitudes worse than the 9/11) and the new state is built on retribution. If you add the continuous festering of the Irish situation, as well as the imperial troubles, the forecast is quite bleak. UK will change, sooner or later; but IMO it will take a couple generations.
LordKalvan said:
I agree with LK the pas-de-calais region makes most sense for the UK...also serves as a stark reminder to France of their faliure.
Hey LK have you read the latest installment of the Tuscan Sons TL?
Yeah, it wouldn't do to overdo the whole darkening of Britain, so to say, but I kinda like the intensity of a hatefilled, grim and just mean spirited Empire, not to mention the prospect of a very vengefull Britain, out to destroy Germany and anybody else who happens to be in the way!M.Passit said:
I my book the Brits are usually the good guys, so it's kinda fun to turn things upside down a bit - just as France ends up being a superpower (light version, but still) in my MoS-ATL!
I do like your idea, whether it would work is perhaps another matter! Still, I'll try to incorporate it when the time comes. The idea of a Congress of Vienna is pretty good and cool!M.Passit said:
Good idea, Passit, I like it!M.Passit said:Or..
Yes, I think they will, and then things start to go wrong. How do this sound; when Britain reenters the war the new countries are so sick and tired of the war and Germany, that they turn their guns on their German masters, and each other?M.Passit said:
I do, however, think the Army and the various Ministries and what not have enough clout in this ATL to prevent total genocide as in OTL, but Himmler and Co will try to implement a policy of ethnic cleansing where- and whenever they can, no doubt!
Yeah, I think Mussolini will want in on the action, whether the Regio Esercito can handle it or not - it's all about prestige and such like for old Benito!LordKalvan said:
Nah, that's not quite fair, but I can't see him pass up on an occupation zone or something cose to it!Well, occupation might be slightly more demanding considering the attitude of the British and their intend to dismember the Reich! Furthermore the fear of the Soviets will not really be here to make the Western Allies look like a good, kind and nice alterantive!
Ok, duely noted! As mentioned below, the idea of annexing Hannover just appelaed to me!LordKalvan said:
But then again the people in that part of the world tend to be quite quarrelsome and, eh, bellicose, and the Italians are not be any means like the Germans in WW2, so is uspct a fair level of partisan activity will keep the Bulgarians, Greeks, Hungarians and Italians rather occupied...LordKalvan said:
A least it is my intention that the strain of occupying the Balkans together with other stuff of course lead to the Collapse of Dictatorship in the 50's.
Indeed, more or less as I see it too! In OTL the Irish Crisis (aka the Troubles)spawned some of the worlds toughest anti-terror laws, propable more worthy of a third world dictatorship than an open society ala the UK! Besides, as said, a dark badass Britain is rather fun, I think!LordKalvan said:
The Pas-de-Calais region it is then! Just thouhgt it could be funny to have the New britain reassert their (royal house's?) claim to Hannover!Shadow Knight said:
There is more? Wow, sometimes I wonder whether I ever get to finish it! Still, so far it looks good, SK, but I'll just sneak over to your thread and post some well earned praise!Shadow Knight said:
I few nitpicks!M.Passit said:If anyone find anything wrong about the map, feel free to tell me, 'cause I want it to be as accurate as possible. Thanks!
Could you merge the Polish Central Governement and Bohmen-Moravia into Germany itself? And give Slovakia and Romania the light grey German Allied colour instead?Thanks a lot for all your comments, and Passit for his efforts with the maps!
My regards!
- Mr. Bluenote.
Mr.Bluenote said:
I agree...exceptionally fun!
Mr.Bluenote said:
I'd only expect that if this newer darker Britain decided to dump the royal family all together (unlikely as they are going for the opposite) and were looking for a convenient place to dump them.
Although if you plan on reinstating Prussia...maybe a English monarch back on the Prussian throne? (They were related to the last Kaiser William it is plausible in my opinion.)
Mr.Bluenote said:
Thanks for the comments Mr. BN. The TL is just a bit shy of one hundred pages in word (Times New Roman in 10 or 12 font). I don't think that Britain will dump the royal family. If anything, they're too useful as a propaganda tool to dump.
Thinking again, King George will be somewhat against this New Britain since he was one of the Old Britain, but princess Elizabeth is still young at that time, so....maybe she will felt the same anger as the younger generation will felt in that time. There could be a disagreement in the royal family as the youngers sided with New Britain while the olders sided with the 'Old Way'. It could grow to a point that split them apart, not in front of the public of course, the government won't allow that to happen since they have to maintain a fabrication of normalcy. I can see the strain between the Trojka and King George and several other members of the royalty grow to a point that the government will find some way to keep them in tightly control. And when the Kingdom of Prussia is created, they will force King George to abdicate from the British throne to accept the Prussian one, and quicky enthrone the cooperatable, and maybe controlable, Queen Elizabeth II. Prussia will be a dump basket for Britain to dump the royal members that they didn't like, or deemed uncontrolable, into that country, under an evenmore tightly control of course.
Margrave of Brandenburg for Prince Charles? Just kidding!!!
Something I want to ask you mr.B. What about the Thai-French War? It's happen around 1941( This part of history in Thailand is very....well, not have much details) and mediate by the Japanese. Will Japan and Thailand agree to partition it somehow? or the Japanese just swallow the whole of it?
And...how advance of the Japanese in China? With support of the British, I can see the Japanese control all the coastline by 1941, cutting the rest from supplies and other stuff.
Thinking again, King George will be somewhat against this New Britain since he was one of the Old Britain, but princess Elizabeth is still young at that time, so....maybe she will felt the same anger as the younger generation will felt in that time. There could be a disagreement in the royal family as the youngers sided with New Britain while the olders sided with the 'Old Way'. It could grow to a point that split them apart, not in front of the public of course, the government won't allow that to happen since they have to maintain a fabrication of normalcy. I can see the strain between the Trojka and King George and several other members of the royalty grow to a point that the government will find some way to keep them in tightly control. And when the Kingdom of Prussia is created, they will force King George to abdicate from the British throne to accept the Prussian one, and quicky enthrone the cooperatable, and maybe controlable, Queen Elizabeth II. Prussia will be a dump basket for Britain to dump the royal members that they didn't like, or deemed uncontrolable, into that country, under an evenmore tightly control of course.
Margrave of Brandenburg for Prince Charles?
Just kidding!!!Something I want to ask you mr.B. What about the Thai-French War? It's happen around 1941( This part of history in Thailand is very....well, not have much details) and mediate by the Japanese. Will Japan and Thailand agree to partition it somehow? or the Japanese just swallow the whole of it?
And...how advance of the Japanese in China? With support of the British, I can see the Japanese control all the coastline by 1941, cutting the rest from supplies and other stuff.
Yes, the Royal Family are a must in Britain, new or old, but the conflict between the Old Guard and new visionaries, so to say, is an interesting facet that I haven't really thought much about! Hmm, maybe I should add some stuff about that in the next instalment concerning New Britain!M.Passit said:I don't think that Britain will dump the royal family. If anything, they're too useful as a propaganda tool to dump. (...) Margrave of Brandenburg for Prince Charles?
Hehe, yes, and Prince Charles would do very nicely as Margrave of Brandenburg!
Still, I don't think OTL's Charles will be born as Princess Lizzie will be married off to someone else I will suspect!Humbum, with France out of the game, so to say, then Tahiland and Japan will be the ones to to settle the borders, right? In such an instance I don't think the Thais will move a muscle. rather they just sit tight and hope the Japanese overlook them!M.Passit said:
Thailand will most likely be an independent country with the Brits starring at them from one side and the Japanese eyeing them from the other - not a very enviable position, I should imagine!
I havan't really thought much about the war outside Europe. When I started the ATL, I just wanted to explore how the absence of Göring could lead to a victory in the BoB for the Luftwaffe, so the rest has been added in bits as I went along. Still, add the yellow colour as you see fit, Passit - you guess is as good as mine!M.Passit said:
Good job with the maps, Passit - thanks man!
Best regards and all!
- Bluenote.
Re the map, Yugoslavia should be partitioned: south Slovenia to Italy, north one to Germany, Banat to Hungary, Macedonia to Greece and Bulgaria, Kosovo to Albania.
I've partially lost touch with this TL. A few things to note about Op Fred G:
1] Jodl was the prime mover of the emphasis on the wings strategy. Hitler disliked intensely the fact that Halder was essentially recapitulating Napoleon--take Minsk, Take Smolensk then march on Moscow and so he bought the Jodl plan which then went into a series of compromises with the Halder Plan
2] A big deal was made about whether or not to close the initial encirclement at Smolensk--Guderian being a big advocate of the Big Circle (not all military historians agree it would've worked)
3] Hitler had a notion that taking Leningrad might demorlaize Soviet Union enough it would collapse. He also had a strange fascination with the Valdai Hills region.
4] Hitler's obsession with economic warfare was not limited to oil. He was also very interested in manganese and aluminum (Tikhvin) as well as denying Russia its weakbasket (the Ukraine)
1] Jodl was the prime mover of the emphasis on the wings strategy. Hitler disliked intensely the fact that Halder was essentially recapitulating Napoleon--take Minsk, Take Smolensk then march on Moscow and so he bought the Jodl plan which then went into a series of compromises with the Halder Plan
2] A big deal was made about whether or not to close the initial encirclement at Smolensk--Guderian being a big advocate of the Big Circle (not all military historians agree it would've worked)
3] Hitler had a notion that taking Leningrad might demorlaize Soviet Union enough it would collapse. He also had a strange fascination with the Valdai Hills region.
4] Hitler's obsession with economic warfare was not limited to oil. He was also very interested in manganese and aluminum (Tikhvin) as well as denying Russia its weakbasket (the Ukraine)
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