The Death of Göring and the Victory of the Luftwaffe

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Hapsburg

Banned
Long story short: Goering dies a little later on, Galland takes power, Germany wins the air war. Germany wins the air war, they win the whole war.
 
orion900 said:
OutStanding TL keep it up, can't wait for the next one.
Thank you very much, Orion! I'm glad you like it! I hope to post more some time soon.

Tom_B said:
Overall this is very interesting.
Glad to hear it, Tom!

Tom_B said:
I still wonder a bit about the rate at which the Germans are developing helicopters. Even today they are tempermental craft and I would think the early German models would have a lot of problems with breakdowns.
Hmm, that might very well be, yes. My original draft didn't feature helicopters, but I thought it would be fun to have them, to a certain degree, replace gliders. It is my impression, not being an expert on helicopters (hate the buggers, actually), that the German models in W2 were actually rather good and reliable, once some of the kinks were worked out of the designs. In OTL I believe that the first helicopters flew in the early to mid-30's, so it's not, considering the speed with which the Germans invented new types of weapons, to have them operational in 1940, or?!

Tom_B said:
There was a late 1940 plan for an invasion of Iceland in OTL and IIRC it was called Operation Cerebus. The main idea was to land a reinforced mountain division from a fast liner.
Really? I didn't know that? Must not have been on the internet! ;) To be frank I stole the idea from Tom Clancey in Red Storm Rising... Besides, the Germans needed somthing to go wrong for them! :)

Karlos said:
Are we going to miss our dear Battle of Britain? Hope the british resist a little bit. I think that they will sue for peace if they begin to loose capital ships at a good rate. Britain only had hope as long as it had its Navy.
Oh, fear not, Karlos - the BoB is on the horizont, and they will resist. I have never seen Halifax as one to fold so easily as many portray him in various AH's, but the RN will take and beating and so will the RAF which in the end will lead to an armistice.

One question, though. How will the British wage an offensive bomber war angainst Germany if the Luftwaffe does not bomb British cities? Will the RAF be the first to hit a city?

Best regards!

- Bluenote.
 
I came, I saw…

I came, I saw…
Let us have peace, let us have life
Let us escape the cruel night
Let us have time, let the sun shine
Let us beware the deadly sign

The day is coming
Armageddon’s near
Inferno’s coming
Can we survive the blitzkrieg?
The blitzkrieg
The blitzkrieg

- Metallica, Blitzkrieg.

Lashing out the action, returning the reaction
Weak are ripped and torn away
Hypnotizing power, crushing all that cower
Battery is here to stay

- Metallica, Battery.

In most of the world’s capitals, including Berlin, politicians and senior officers alike looked at the Norwegian campaign with a mix of stunned fear and surprise. In OKM, Grand Admiral Raeder feared that the succes of the Kriegsmarine, or more correctly the KLK – the Kriegsmarine’s airforce -, would give Hitler some rather unreals ideas about its capabilities. In both the OKL and OKH, the commanders were more surprised than fearfull, but somehow they foresaw this success leading to more and more exagerated war aims. London was, however, without doubt, along with Paris, the capital most affected by the Norwegian disaster, or Churchill’s Folly. The Chamberlain government only stayed in power with the slightest of margins, as the opposition, with Churchill out of the picture for good, could not muster a viable alternative. Among the senior air force and naval officers a state of near panick was evident, as the deceisiveness of air superiority and the ability of air power to radically influence a given battle began to sink in. It began to dawn on several of the more visionary generals and admirals that the one-tracked focus on bombers, or offensive air power, was perhaps wrong, and that more fighters were needed to gain the apparent vital air superiority. It was, however, too late. Operation Feldherrenhalle had barely ended, but already the Panzers were rolling again. This time westwards…

The political situation in Germany after Göring’s death had not initially played in Hitler’s favour as the reactionary forces, as the Nazis called them, within the armed forces seemed to strengthen. This was one of the reasons why Bormann had been so keen to built up the Luftwaffe, not to mentioned the fact that he himself benefitted politically from its succcesses, as it was the youngest and most loyal branch of the Wehrmacht. The Kriegsmarine had proven to be very apolitical, whereas the Heer was full of oldschool Junckers and we-know-best-types. For a long time Hitler lacked the political power to settle the score with said generals, so he and his croonies turned to other means; they looked far and wide for trustwothy officers, not necessarily Nazis, but people whom the junckers in OKH and OKW at least didn’t like, promoted them and whenever possible put them in key positions. In early 1940, this had gotten men like Hausser, Guderian, Rommel, Schörner, Model and von Manstein into either senior command slots or other equally powerfull positions – the apolitical Erich von Manstein was for example head of OKW’s operational department, while Heinrich Guderian lead the Schnelltruppen – basically the Panzer forces – and the aging Paul Hausser was head of the OKH. Men like Rommel. Schörner and Model led the Armies bursting into France.

The invasion of Western Europe - Luxembourg, Holand, Belgium and France - was devised by the von Manstein-Hausser-Guderian trio. Basically it called for a diversionary attack, so to say, on Holland and Belgium in the hope of drawing the Allied Armies north, followed by a powerfull panzer force cutting through the Ardennes region, thus avoiding the Maginot line, and racing for the Channel Coast. If everything worked out according to the plan - Operation Hermann -, most of the Allied land forces would be caught in Belgium. The ultimate goal of Opr. Hermann was to force the British and French governments to seek an armistice and eventuallly recognize Germany’s claims in Eastern Europe and perhaps to rearrange the Franco-German border a bit here and there. After the impressive German victory in Norway Hitler’s lust for more grew, though….

In early May, when the weather was just right, Luftwaffe unleashed a series of attacks on Belgian and Dutch airfields. Swarms of primarily Ju-87’s, Ju-88’s and He-111’s, loosely escorted by Me-109’s, overcame whatever limited defenses the Dutch and Belgian air forces could mount. Within the first two days, the air power of mentioned countries were reduced to nothing, and the Luftwaffe turned to France.

The first operational squadrone of the new Henschel Hs-129 close support aircraft took to the air during those initial assaults, as did the twin-37mm armed Ju-87’s. The idea of a heavy quick-firing gun instead of bombs proved to be nearly brilliant as the battle of Montcornet showed. An armoured counter-attack by the French 4th Division threatened to rip a hole in the German front, but the French attack got stopped in its tracks by continious air attacks by Ju-87’s and a handfull of the extremely deadly Hs-129.

France had, as Britain, focused on building an impresive bomber force, and thus neglecting the fighter arm of their air force. This proved to be a major mistake and the France Armee l’Air was completely unable to stop the waves of German aircraft washing in over its borders. Backed by a handfull of RADAR-equiped Do-19’s the German fighters made short work of any serious resistance put up by the French fighters, and the German CAS and medium bombers thereafter more or less roamed at will.

As the Stuka and Panzerknacker’s supported the advancing armies, the medium bombers struck hard at rail heads, supply dumps and communication centers. The German air crews had had plenty of training and performed their task with great success. The combination of almost total air superiority, close air support and continious interdiction was a winning one. The French were were one the ropes from day one, to paraphrase Air General Udet. The heroic exploits of the German pilots during the Battle for France would later be made into a very successful Riefenstahl-movie, Die Jungen Adler – the Young Eagles –, wich featured many of the most prominent young German aces, Gallant and Mölders amongst others. The fighter pilots soon became the superstars and darlings of the Reich at the time. Eventhough Adolf Gallant’s cartoon painted Me-109 would win even more famed in the victorious Battle of Britain...

During the opening stages of the Battle for France, thousands of SD-4-H1 cluster bombs, which had proven so usefull and deadly in Norway, and its bigger brother the SD-6-G, was dropped on French roads and air fields with good results, to say the least. The submunitions ruined roads as well as runways and made the clean-up process expensive and costly because of the timer-set and rigged bomblets left behind.

The British and French air forces did, however, try to take the war to the Germans, but again the fighter-heavy Luftwaffe, along with its impressive ability to control the skies both at the front and over its homeland, proved to much for the inexperienced Allies and each attempt only increased the losses of their air forces.

In late May, 1940, the main Allied Armies had been trapped in a shrinking pocket in southwestern Belgium – around a coastal town called Dunkerque -, the French government had been forced to flee Paris as the city was enveloped by German panzers under the command of Hasso von Manteuffle – and had apparently begun to sue for peace in some form -, and RAF had relocated their last operational squadrones from France to southern Britain, soon followed by several French squadrones.

Where the French government had begun to explore the possibily of an armistice, the Dutch and Begian goverments had already surrendered. The fall of the impregnable fortress of Eben Emael on the very first day of Operation Hermann had shaken the Belgians badly – General Student and his airmobile stormpioneers would all later be congratulated and showered in medals by an exuberant Hitler. Likewise had the airborne operations and Brandenburger-infiltrations in Holland along with the rapid German advances on every part of the front. With the Low Countries out of the picture, and France crumbling fast, the OKH and OKL concentrated on the remaining battleworthy remnants of the Allied Armies in Dunkerque.

At the same time an opportunist Stalin launched the long awaited invasion of Finland and the Baltic countries. The three small Baltics states were overrun without much of a problem, whereas the Red Army soon bogged down in Finland due to both Finnish restistance and its own incompetence. In the Mediterranean the Italian dictator, Benito Mussolini, began eyeing the French and British possessions in North Africa as well as Greece and Yugoslavia on the Balkans with evergrowing interest.
 
I believe it's Galland not Gallant. It is a nice ironic touch naming an operation after the person whose elimination makes things better. In this TL he would be seen as a mythic father figure and probably there are alt historians who say "if only he had lived longer". You might allow for a minor setback--eg. a helicopter raid into enemy rear areas gets mauled or some of the Hs129 have their guns jam from overheating.

Anyway very interesting. Keep it up.

Tom
 
Tom_B said:
I believe it's Galland not Gallant.
Oops, yes, and I believe you're quite right. I really don't know why, but I always seem to misspell poor Adolf G's name... Generally speaking, I'm sorry for the numerous typos in my posts, but I somehow always seem to miss a few here and there... :eek:

Tom_B said:
It is a nice ironic touch naming an operation after the person whose elimination makes things better. In this TL he would be seen as a mythic father figure and probably there are alt historians who say "if only he had lived longer".
Heh, yes, isn't it?! :) I assume that a Göring who died in the mid-30's will have a very unique standing in Nazi mythology, not to mention in Hitler's warped mind, just as you yourself suspect. That's why I renamed OTL's Condor Legion, Weserübung and Fall Gelb...

Tom_B said:
You might allow for a minor setback--eg. a helicopter raid into enemy rear areas gets mauled or some of the Hs129 have their guns jam from overheating.
Yeah, but I felt that I had to make the French Campaign happen and be done with more or less in one post to keep the ATL going. Hm, how about an airmobile operation against the Channel Isles or in regard to Dunkerque?! The helo's running into AA's? Or perhaps overconfident Ju-87 pilots run into heavy ground fire and get slaughtered?! Or perhaps a German bailout of the Italians in Greece as in OTL, where the poor Fallschirmjägers get their lightly armed behinds kicked?! Could open up for the idea of armed support helicopters?!

But yes, in general, the Germans need a few setbacks. That's why I included the somewhat idiotic invasion of Iceland in the last post... oh, and the sinking of Graff Spee by the Hood! :)

Fearless Leader said:
Great Job on the TL Mr. Bluenote! Keep it up! I eagerly await the next installment!
Thank you once more, Fearless and Tom! Will do (I have most of "Dunkerque, bloody Dunkerque" lined out)! :)

So, as I asked earlier, will RAF order an all-out bomber attack on German cities?! Or how will they respond (besides getting as many fighters to the squadrones as possible, that is)?!

Best regards!

- Bluenote.
 
What about weapon production problems which happen in OTL, lack of male factory and farm workers, food shortage in Germany, and with Germany early victory 1939 and 1940, will they received trade income and raw industrial supplies from Italy and Spain? Outstanding ATL TimeLine Keep up the good work.

What about Germany's Aircraft Carrier program?


What about Germany's Jet Aircraft Program?
 
One thing you do with a setback here and there is that it teaches the Luftwaffe some valuable lessons (and the Fatfree Luftwaffe is more likely to be able to admit mistakes then the OTL version with the megalomaniac on drugs). This really is the historical process--there is a good idea but it's not a perfect idea and it has teething problems.
 
I came, I saw…
Let us have peace, let us have life
Let us escape the cruel night
Let us have time, let the sun shine
Let us beware the deadly sign

The day is coming
Armageddon’s near
Inferno’s coming
Can we survive the blitzkrieg?
The blitzkrieg
The blitzkrieg

- Metallica, Blitzkrieg.

Lashing out the action, returning the reaction
Weak are ripped and torn away
Hypnotizing power, crushing all that cower
Battery is here to stay

- Metallica, Battery.

In most of the world’s capitals, including Berlin, politicians and senior officers alike looked at the Norwegian campaign with a mix of stunned fear and surprise. In OKM, Grand Admiral Raeder feared that the succes of the Kriegsmarine, or more correctly the KLK – the Kriegsmarine’s airforce -, would give Hitler some rather unreals ideas about its capabilities. In both the OKL and OKH, the commanders were more surprised than fearfull, but somehow they foresaw this success leading to more and more exagerated war aims. London was, however, without doubt, along with Paris, the capital most affected by the Norwegian disaster, or Churchill’s Folly. The Chamberlain government only stayed in power with the slightest of margins, as the opposition, with Churchill out of the picture for good, could not muster a viable alternative. Among the senior air force and naval officers a state of near panick was evident, as the deceisiveness of air superiority and the ability of air power to radically influence a given battle began to sink in. It began to dawn on several of the more visionary generals and admirals that the one-tracked focus on bombers, or offensive air power, was perhaps wrong, and that more fighters were needed to gain the apparent vital air superiority. It was, however, too late. Operation Feldherrenhalle had barely ended, but already the Panzers were rolling again. This time westwards…

The political situation in Germany after Göring’s death had not initially played out in Hitler’s favour as the reactionary forces, as the Nazis called them, within the armed forces seemed to strengthen. This was one of the reasons why Bormann had been so keen to built up the Luftwaffe, not to mentioned the fact that he himself benefitted politically from its succcesses, as it was the youngest and most loyal branch of the Wehrmacht. The Kriegsmarine had proven to be very apolitical, whereas the Heer was full of old-school Junckers and we-know-best-types. For a long time Hitler lacked the political power to settle the score with said generals, so he and his croonies turned to other means; they looked far and wide for trustwothy officers, not necessarily Nazis, but people whom the junckers in OKH and OKW at least didn’t like, promoted them and whenever possible put them in key positions. In early 1940, this had gotten men like Hausser, Guderian, Rommel, Schörner, Model and von Manstein into either senior command slots or other equally powerfull positions – the apolitical Erich von Manstein was for example head of OKW’s operational department, while Heinrich Guderian lead the Schnelltruppen – basically the Panzer forces – and the aging Paul Hausser was head of the OKH. Men like Rommel. Schörner and Model led the Armies bursting into France.

The invasion of Western Europe - Luxembourg, Holand, Belgium and France - was devised by the von Manstein-Hausser-Guderian trio. Basically it called for a diversionary attack, so to say, on Holland and Belgium in the hope of drawing the Allied Armies north, followed by a powerfull panzer force cutting through the Ardennes region, thus avoiding the Maginot line, and racing for the Channel Coast. If everything worked out according to the plan - Operation Hermann -, most of the Allied land forces would be caught in Belgium. The ultimate goal of Opr. Hermann was to force the British and French governments to seek an armistice and eventuallly recognize Germany’s claims in Eastern Europe and perhaps to rearrange the Franco-German border a bit here and there. After the impressive German victory in Norway Hitler’s lust for more grew, though….

In early May, when the weather was just right, Luftwaffe unleashed a series of attacks on Belgian and Dutch airfields. Swarms of primarily Ju-87’s, Ju-88’s and He-111’s, loosely escorted by Me-109’s, overcame whatever limited defenses the Dutch and Belgian air forces could mount. Within the first two days, the air power of mentioned countries were reduced to nothing, and the Luftwaffe turned to France.

The first operational squadrone of the new Henschel Hs-129 close support aircraft took to the air during those initial assaults, as did the twin-37mm armed Ju-87’s. The idea of a heavy quick-firing gun instead of bombs proved to be nearly brilliant as the battle of Montcornet showed. An armoured counter-attack by the French 4th Division threatened to rip a hole in the German front, but the French attack got stopped in its tracks by continious air attacks by Ju-87’s and a handfull of the extremely deadly Hs-129.

France had, as Britain, focused on building an impresive bomber force, and thus neglecting the fighter arm of their air force. This proved to be a major mistake and the France Armee l’Air was completely unable to stop the waves of German aircraft washing in over its borders. Backed by a handfull of RADAR-equiped Do-19’s the German fighters made short work of any serious resistance put up by the French fighters, and the German CAS and medium bombers thereafter more or less roamed at will.

As the Stuka and Panzerknacker’s supported the advancing armies with both pinpoint and terror attacks – the mere sound of the howling Stuka’s often brought fear to the French soldiers -, and the medium bombers struck hard at rail heads, supply dumps and communication centers the French will to fight slowly began to crumble. The German air crews had had plenty of training and on-the-job experience performed their task with great success and haunted the retreating French armies. The combination of almost total air superiority, close air support and continious interdiction was a winning one. The French were on the ropes from day one, to paraphrase Air General Udet, who along with his old partner from the Hermann Göring Legion’s adventures in Spain, Wolfram von Richthofen, headed Luftwaffe’s operations in Western Europe, albeit under the Chief-of-Staff, Air General Albert Kesselring’s, personal supervision, though.

The heroic exploits of the German pilots during the Battle for France would later be made into a very successful Riefenstahl-movie, Die Jungen Adler – the Young Eagles –, wich featured many of the most prominent young German aces, Galland, Steinhof, Lutzow and Mölders amongst others. The fighter pilots soon became the superstars and darlings of the Reich at the time. Adolf Galland’s cartoon painted Me-109 would win even more fame, and he himself rapid promotion, in the victorious Battle of Britain, where his entire squadrone, JG-26, would be named after him; the Galland Circus...

During the opening stages of the Battle for France, thousands of SD-4-H1 cluster bombs, which had proven so usefull and deadly in Norway, and its bigger brother the SD-6-G, was dropped on French roads and air fields with good results, to say the least. The submunitions ruined roads as well as runways and made the clean-up process expensive and costly because of the timer-set and rigged bomblets left behind.

The British and French air forces did, however, try to take the war to the Germans, but again the fighter-heavy Luftwaffe, along with its impressive ability to control the skies both at the front and over its homeland, proved to much for the inexperienced Allies and each attempt only increased the losses of their air forces. The only Allied plane to have some successes were the heavy Short Sterling, which at times were able to survive air attacks the lighter bombers could not.

In late May, 1940, the main Allied Armies had been trapped in a shrinking pocket in southwestern Belgium – around a coastal town called Dunkerque -, the French government had been forced to flee Paris as the city was enveloped by German panzers under the command of Hasso von Manteuffle – and had apparently begun to sue for peace in some form -, and RAF had relocated their last operational squadrones from France to southern Britain, soon followed by several French squadrones.
During General von Manteuffel’s crossing of the River Meuse, helicopers and fallschrimjägers were used to spearhead the attack. This early go at a combined arms operation nearly failed capastrophically as the airmobile troops ran into heavy fire from emplaced French 20mm anti-aircraft guns on the opposite side of the Meuse. All the employed Fa-284. Focke-Achgelis helicopters sufferede extensive damage, and a full third – along with their crews and compliment of 24 paratroops each - were lost. Luftwaffe were quick to glose this over, but Student, and the senior leadership in the OKL, never forgot the Meuse Incident…

Where the French government had begun to explore the possibily of an armistice, the Dutch and Begian goverments had already surrendered. The fall of the impregnable fortress of Eben Emael on the very first day of Operation Hermann had shaken the Belgians badly – General Student and his airmobile stormpioneers would all later be congratulated and showered in medals by an exuberant Hitler – who knew nothing of the Meuse Incident. Likewise had the airborne operations and Brandenburger-infiltrations in Holland along with the rapid German advances on every part of the front. With the Low Countries out of the picture, and France crumbling fast, the OKH and OKL concentrated on the remaining battleworthy remnants of the Allied Armies in Dunkerque.

At the same time an opportunist Stalin launched the long awaited invasion of Finland and the Baltic countries. The three small Baltics states were overrun without much of a problem, whereas the Red Army soon bogged down in Finland due to both Finnish restistance and its own incompetence. In the Mediterranean the Italian dictator, Benito Mussolini, began eyeing the French and British possessions in North Africa as well as Greece and Yugoslavia on the Balkans with evergrowing interest.


orion900 said:
What about weapon production problems which happen in OTL, lack of male factory and farm workers, food shortage in Germany, and with Germany early victory 1939 and 1940, will they received trade income and raw industrial supplies from Italy and Spain? Outstanding ATL TimeLine Keep up the good work.
Well, I suppose that some parts of the German industry will be at war footing earlier as Hitler is less powerfull wihtout Göring and that parts of the industry will simple perform better due to the mere fact the Der Dicke will not mess up the Office of the Four Year plan (and everything else) - Bormann is way more competent!

Supplies from Italy?! What might that be, Orion?

The German successes will likely prompt the Balkan nations to focus more on Germany as a market - especially after the Brits drop out of the war. Basically the Germans are better off in this ATL then in OTL...

And thank you very much by the way, Orion! Glad to hear it, and I will! :)

orion900 said:
What about Germany's Aircraft Carrier program?
Uh, I think the two carriers should be ready by 1941, but I'm considering letting the Kriegsmarine move ahead with only the KM Göring and hope to have it ready sooner, or at least let it appear that way to strees the Brits...

orion900 said:
What about Germany's Jet Aircraft Program?
No jets, I think. Too expensive and they are in nearly every other WW2 ATL... :)

Tom_B said:
One thing you do with a setback here and there is that it teaches the Luftwaffe some valuable lessons (and the Fatfree Luftwaffe is more likely to be able to admit mistakes then the OTL version with the megalomaniac on drugs). This really is the historical process--there is a good idea but it's not a perfect idea and it has teething problems.
Indeed, and I agree! I've just rewritten a few parts of the last post "I Came, I Saw..." and included a, shall we say, helo-mishap at the River Meuse, some additional lines about Galland (with a "d", yes! :) ) and some about the Short Sterling...

Thanks for all your comments, guys! I really appriciate it!

Now, I'm off the read the latets installment of Opr.Unicorn in the Writer's Forum... oh, goody, goody, goody... :D

Best regards!

- Mr.Bluenote.
 
Hey Mr. Bluenote you might want to remember the He 219 "Uhu" which was the last and probably best nightfighter of the war in OTL.

However it was designed around 1940 as a replacement for the Me-110. It was basically a multi-role fighter and was easily capable of filling many roles including all-weather fighter, night fighter, ground attack aircraft, torpedo bomber...

Anyhow it was rejected due to its tricycle landing gear and a general apathy of the Nazi government. Perhaps it could get somewhere in this TL...

Link
 

Hapsburg

Banned
Messerschmitt Planes:
110 was good.
210 sucked.
310 rocked.
109 was good
190 rocked
262 rocked
163 was good
263 was better
363 would've rocked
 
Fearless Leader said:
Hey Mr. Bluenote you might want to remember the He 219 "Uhu" which was the last and probably best nightfighter of the war in OTL.
Ah, yes, once I found a picture of it, I knew what plane you were talking about, Fearless - one rather deadly looking Owl that one. :)

But as you yourself says, it was developed in OTL in 1941 were the western sky was still contested so to say. In this ATL there are no fighting on the Western Front from late 1940 to sometime in mid 1944. So the question is, will the Luftwaffe/RLM spend resources on developing night-fighters to battle the Soviets?! Furthermore it seems like Milch was the man who tried to stop the Uhu's development and Milch is the Big Man in this ATL, so...

Still it's a nasty (not so) little plane, that I kinda like... hm, maybe a later variant appears after the Brits re-enter the war in '44?

But thanks for pointing out all these Luftwaffe planes, Fearless - I would never have found the Fieseler Torpedo Bomber without your hints!

Hapsburg said:
Messerschmitt Planes: 110 was good. (...) 190 rocked (...)
The Bf-110 was good?! Um, for what? It's my impression that it only really worked as a night-fighter... The 190?! Eh, are you sure you are not thinking of the Focke-Wulf FW-190, Haps? Oh, and you forgot the Hornisse (Me-410 Hornet) on your list - apparently a much better plane than the Me-210...

Best regards!

- Mr.Bluenote.
 

Hapsburg

Banned
i was referring to the FW190....what other planes were called the "190" in germany during ww2?

I was going to call the Bf110 "utter crap" but then remembered that it was a Messerschmitt plane...

Oh yeah...forgot the 410, better than the 310, which was better than the 210.
 
Hapsburg said:
i was referring to the FW190....what other planes were called the "190" in germany during ww2?
Eh, none that I know of, but you stated that it was list of Messerschmitt planes, so I was kinda curious...

What exactly was the Me-310, Haps?

Best regards and all!

- B.
 

Hapsburg

Banned
sorry, i meant that mos tof 'em were messr. schmitty
the 310 was inbetween the 210 and 410...what, can't you count?
:D :D :D *yuk yuk yuk* :D :D :D
 
I like the changes. The helicopter raid gone bad will teach the Germans a good lesson about limitations of their new toy. Actually one thing about the Fatfree Luftwaffe is that they are less likely to make extravagant claims to Hitler about what they can accomplish (Dunkerque, Sea Lion, Stalingrad, etc.)

I think I probably asked this before, but did you look at the FW 187 as a possible escort fighter--perhaps in a limited production of say 3 gruppen?

Tom
 
Hapsburg said:
Messerschmitt Planes:
110 was good.
210 sucked.
310 rocked.
109 was good
190 rocked
262 rocked
163 was good
263 was better
363 would've rocked

What's the Me190?
I thought only a Fw190 existed.
 

Faeelin

Banned
I've been reading this, and it's interesting. But coudl development of a Strategic arm of the Luftwaffe hurt it? How many Stukas and such aren't being produced as a result?
 
Tom_B said:
I like the changes. The helicopter raid gone bad will teach the Germans a good lesson about limitations of their new toy. Actually one thing about the Fatfree Luftwaffe is that they are less likely to make extravagant claims to Hitler about what they can accomplish (Dunkerque, Sea Lion, Stalingrad, etc.)
Thank you! Regarding the claims made in OTL, yes, the Fatfree Luftwaffe will be more, hm, conservative and, well, sane. ;) I'm currently toying with the idea of having Hitler sack Wever after Dunkerque when Wever refuses to endorse an ATL Sea Lion (a paratroop attack on the south coast or some such idiocy...).

Tom_B said:
I think I probably asked this before, but did you look at the FW 187 as a possible escort fighter--perhaps in a limited production of say 3 gruppen?
Uh, if so, Tom, I can't recall it! :eek: Seems to be a good plane - didn't btw know there were private air units in Germany during WW2. Anyway, if the Me-109 is capable of long range escort (drop tanks), the Iberian Intermezzo taught the Germans that bombers need both armour and armament and the fact that the Me-110 never flew - thus are no twin engined predecessor, so to say - will there be a need for the Falke, or even be the notion, that a plane like the FW-187 is needed? Besides, I would think that a twin engined fighter like the Falke would be more expensive than the Me-109, something the ATL Luftwaffe would take into serious consideration - strapped for resources as they are/would be without Der Dicke...

Faeelin said:
I've been reading this, and it's interesting. But coudl development of a Strategic arm of the Luftwaffe hurt it? How many Stukas and such aren't being produced as a result?
Thank you very much, Faeelin. Well, my idea is that without Göring, the Luftwaffe will be way more resource efficient and that the focus on fewer types of aircrafts will make a small - Wever was a proponent of a balanced airforce, not a heavy bomber nut like Portal and Harris - strategic arm affordable. And the Kriegsmarine pay for some of the aircrafts as well, not to mentioned research and air crew training. Furthermore, I suppose that fighters are cheaper than even medium bombers, and the Fatfree Luftwaffe is very fighter heavy in comparison to OTL's Luftwaffe. Basically, I think it is possible to have some heavy bombers without having to make too many sacrifices...

Peter said:
Great timeline, keep us updated!
Thanks, Peter! Will do! Hope to post either later today or in the weekend...

Yet again, thank you all for your comments and suggestions - they are highly appriciated!

Best regards!

- Bluenote.
 
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