WI: A Third Hittite Empire is established.

Tom_B said:
There is no good reason for the Hittites to wander far afield. There is a moderately good reason they'd want dominate the Caspian to guard their flank against the Caliphate.

True...But I am not that overally worried about the Hittites defending against the Caliphate(Better Ships, Fire of Kalinkos, and Perhaps Gunpowder). My Interst is purley Mercantille, and there is no reason why an very intellegent Hittite Merchant whille in China wouldn't pick up the Junk Designs...and Improve them for Hatti.
 
Historico said:
Robert, Can you come and straighten this arugement out?

One post on each side does not an arguement make. :)

However, I do tend to side with Tom_B on this one. There is evidence (in ancient Chinese texts) that Chinese junks visited ports on the Red Sea and Persian Gulf during the Han Dynasty (Second-Third Century AD). Indeed, one text...dated to 260 AD...apparently describes a seven-masted Junk sailing all the way to Syria (which would imply a very early circumnavigation of Africa!!!).

So it is likely that the peoples of the Near East knew about Chinese ship designs, having been able to view them at close range when they visited Near Eastern ports. Yet there is little evidence that these visits influenced shipbuilding in the Near East to any appreciable degree in OTL. So I don't see more likelihood that the Hittites would drop their proven designs and start building Junks than happened in OTL.
 
The next one to be updated with be "Rome Destroyed in 450 BC." After that, I don't know which one will be updated...either the Hittites or the Tawantinsuya, I am sure.
 
robertp6165 said:
One post on each side does not an arguement make. :)

However, I do tend to side with Tom_B on this one. There is evidence (in ancient Chinese texts) that Chinese junks visited ports on the Red Sea and Persian Gulf during the Han Dynasty (Second-Third Century AD). Indeed, one text...dated to 260 AD...apparently describes a seven-masted Junk sailing all the way to Syria (which would imply a very early circumnavigation of Africa!!!).

So it is likely that the peoples of the Near East knew about Chinese ship designs, having been able to view them at close range when they visited Near Eastern ports. Yet there is little evidence that these visits influenced shipbuilding in the Near East to any appreciable degree in OTL. So I don't see more likelihood that the Hittites would drop their proven designs and start building Junks than happened in OTL.

O'k Robert this might convince you...

A recent find in South America seems to suggest an Arab presence there as early as the eigth century A.D. :Off the coast of Venezulea was discovered a hoard of Medeiterranean coins with so many duplicates that it cannot well be a numismatists collection but rather a supply of cash. Nearly all the coins are Roman, from the reign of Augustus to the fourth century A.D,; two cins, however are Arabic of the eight century AD. It is the latter which gives us the terminus a quo(time after which) of the cololection as a whole(Which cannot be earlier than the latest coins in the collection). Roman coins continued in currency into medieval times. A Moorish ship seems to crossed the Atlantic around A.D. 800.

Because Roman and Arab coins wre not only in use by the Romans, and Arabs, this evidence can not stand alone. It is supportive but not conclusive, The other evidence I present to esteablish contact is historical (Sung Dynasty Documents).

A Chinese professer, Hui-Lin Li, presented a paper to the American Oriental Society in 1961, In this paper Professor Li highlighted two geographical works of the Sung Dynasty...The Ling-wai-tai-ta (11780 by Chou Ch'u fei and Chu-fan-chih(1225) by Chao Ju-kua. These are documents on the Chine and Arab trade in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries. Both works claim that Arab ships headed west of "Ta-shin" (the extremity of the Mohammedan World, which would be the Atlantic coastline of Africa), and traveling on a great sea (sailing due to west for full one hundred day" discovered a new country. In which they called Mu-Lan-Pi

So What If the Hittite after reaquriing some of the lands lost by the break up the Caliphate...Here of this new fertile land and sends out an exploration fleet...Meanwhile the Norse begin exploring the new world as well?
 
Historico said:
O'k Robert this might convince you...

A recent find in South America seems to suggest an Arab presence there as early as the eigth century A.D. :Off the coast of Venezulea was discovered a hoard of Medeiterranean coins with so many duplicates that it cannot well be a numismatists collection but rather a supply of cash. Nearly all the coins are Roman, from the reign of Augustus to the fourth century A.D,; two cins, however are Arabic of the eight century AD. It is the latter which gives us the terminus a quo(time after which) of the cololection as a whole(Which cannot be earlier than the latest coins in the collection). Roman coins continued in currency into medieval times. A Moorish ship seems to crossed the Atlantic around A.D. 800.

I would argue that the fact that the Arab coins were found in the same cache with coins from the time of Augustus PROVES that it is not an ancient cache, but more likely the modern collection of a numismatist. The fact that there were duplicates does not disprove this. A numismatist collecting ancient coins will not be at all averse to collecting numerous examples of the same coin. There is no way that an Arab in 800 AD is going to have coins dating to the 1st Century, or even coins from the 4th Century. Those coins would not have still been in circulation 500-800 years later, any more than people today are still spending Spanish doubloons minted in the 1500s or medieval florins minted in the 1200s. Not gonna happen.

Historico said:
A Chinese professer, Hui-Lin Li, presented a paper to the American Oriental Society in 1961, In this paper Professor Li highlighted two geographical works of the Sung Dynasty...The Ling-wai-tai-ta (11780 by Chou Ch'u fei and Chu-fan-chih(1225) by Chao Ju-kua. These are documents on the Chine and Arab trade in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries. Both works claim that Arab ships headed west of "Ta-shin" (the extremity of the Mohammedan World, which would be the Atlantic coastline of Africa), and traveling on a great sea (sailing due to west for full one hundred day" discovered a new country. In which they called Mu-Lan-Pi

If the Arabs discovered it, where are the Arab writings reporting it? Chinese "hearsay" evidence is not very convincing. The Chinese also reported that one of their philosophers launched himself into space aboard a rocket powered throne, which obviously didn't happen. There is not any more reason to believe in these stories.
 
robertp6165 said:
I would argue that the fact that the Arab coins were found in the same cache with coins from the time of Augustus PROVES that it is not an ancient cache, but more likely the modern collection of a numismatist. The fact that there were duplicates does not disprove this. A numismatist collecting ancient coins will not be at all averse to collecting numerous examples of the same coin. There is no way that an Arab in 800 AD is going to have coins dating to the 1st Century, or even coins from the 4th Century. Those coins would not have still been in circulation 500-800 years later, any more than people today are still spending Spanish doubloons minted in the 1500s or medieval florins minted in the 1200s. Not gonna happen.



If the Arabs discovered it, where are the Arab writings reporting it? Chinese "hearsay" evidence is not very convincing. The Chinese also reported that one of their philosophers launched himself into space aboard a rocket powered throne, which obviously didn't happen. There is not any more reason to believe in these stories.

Not exactly...Wasn't much of the Arab Documents burned in Spain during the overthrow of the Moor. I can't pinpoint the events and Dates exactly but there is an chance that the PI Res Map may be an explanition of an Arab prescence in the Americas? But still it's an nice POD?
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
robertp6165 said:
I would argue that the fact that the Arab coins were found in the same cache with coins from the time of Augustus PROVES that it is not an ancient cache, but more likely the modern collection of a numismatist. The fact that there were duplicates does not disprove this. A numismatist collecting ancient coins will not be at all averse to collecting numerous examples of the same coin. There is no way that an Arab in 800 AD is going to have coins dating to the 1st Century, or even coins from the 4th Century. Those coins would not have still been in circulation 500-800 years later, any more than people today are still spending Spanish doubloons minted in the 1500s or medieval florins minted in the 1200s. Not gonna happen.
Actually, we find mixed Roman and Arab coins in caches in the Levant pretty much all the time. They tend to hold onto money there. Up until fairly recently (post WWII) the prefered tender in much of the Middle East was the Maria Theresa thaler or riyal nimsawi.
 
What about this Robert....



Muslims Expeditions to the "Americas" long before Columbus


Muslims reached the shores of the lands now known as the Americas in the following instances: 1. In the year 889 AD, Muslim sailor Khishkhash ibn Said ibn Aswad Al-Qurtuby (of Cordoba) set sail from the port of Palos in Muslim Spain and reached a certain land in the west. He returned home with huge treasures. He drew a world map calling these areas in the Atlantic Ocean "the unknown land". The Muslim geo-historian Al-Masoudy records this in his book "Muruj-al-Dhahab wa Maadin Aljawhar"(956 AD);"Some people feel that this ocean is the source of all oceans and in it there have been many strange happenings. We have reported some of them in our book Akhbar az-Zaman. Adventurers have penetrated it on the risk of their lives, some returning safely, others perishing in the attempt. One such man was art inhabitant of Andalusia named Khashkhash. He was a young man of Cordoba who gathered a group of young men and went on a voyage on this ocean. After a long time he returned with a fabulous booty. Every Spaniard (Andalusian) knows his story."


2. In Feb. 999 AD, Ibn Farukh from Granada in Muslim Spain landed in Gando (Great Canary), visited King Guanariga and continued his journey westwards till he found two islands, which he called Capraria and Pluitana. He arrived back in Spain in the month of May that year. Abu Bakr b. ‘Umar al Qutiyya relates the story of his voyage.


3. In twelfth century AD, a group of North African sailors: According to the famous Arab geographer Al Sharif al Idrisi (1097-1155);"A group of seafarers sailed into the sea of Darkness and Fog (the Atlantic Ocean) from Lisbon in order to discover what was in it and to what extent were its limit. They were a party of eight and they took a boat, which was loaded with supplies to last them for months. They sailed for eleven days till they reached turbulent waters with great waves and little light. They thought that they would perish so they turned their boat southward and travelled for twenty days. They finally reached an island that had people and cultivation but they were captured and chained for three days. On the fourth day a translator came speaking the Arabic language! He translated for the King and asked them about their mission. They informed him about themselves, then they were returned to their confinement. When the westerly wind began to blow, they were put in a canoe, blindfolded and brought to land after three days’ sailing. They were left on the shore with their hands tied behind their backs, when the next day came, another tribe appeared freeing them and informing them that between them and their lands war a journey of two months." From "The Geography of Al Idrisi".


4. In 1310 AD, Abu Bakari (Abu Bakar), King of the Malian Empire: The predecessor of the world-renowned ruler of the African Islamic Empire of Mali, Mansa Musa set off on a voyage to discover the limits of the neighbouring sea (Atlantic ocean). The emperor narrated this on his famous Hajj pilgrimage in 1324.(See his narration below). There are ample proof that African Muslims from Mali and other parts of West Africa (Mandinga) arrived in the Gulf of Mexico around 1312. They used the Mississippi River as their access route for exploring the interior.


5. In 1421, Cheng He - The legendary Chinese admiral: Cheng He (A Muslim)travelled around the world in the fifteenth century. British marine historian Gavin Manzies proves in his book " 1421 - The year China discovered America" that Cheng He beat Columbus by 71 years. A Chinese historical document known as the Sung document records the voyage of Muslim sailors to a land called as Mu-Lan-Pi (America) in 1178. This document mentioned in another publication - the Khotan Amiers - published in 1933 after the Cheng He voyages.


6. The first map of Americas by Piri Muhyid Din Re’is in 1513. The famous Turkish admiral in charge of the Ottoman Red Sea and Indian Ocean fleets made this map and presented it to Sultan Selim I. Even though Columbus has been to the Caribbean by then, the areas accurately depicted in the map had not been "discovered". Therefore it is logical that the Ottoman admiral was well aware of the areas. ( Refer figure).He was a famous navigator and mapmaker and wrote a handbook on the Aegean and the Mediterranean Seas, known as Piri Re’is Bahriye. The map was discovered by chance in the library of Serallo, Istanbul in 1929 by Khalid Edhem Bey.


7. The "First" to see the Americas became Muslim. May be as a divine justice on a false historical claim, the first Christian to see the American land, Rodrigo de Triana or Rodrigo de Lepe, became a Muslim on his return to Spain, "because Columbus did not give him credit nor the King any recompense, for his having seen before any other man, light in the Indies."


So what about that?
 
Leo Caesius said:
Actually, we find mixed Roman and Arab coins in caches in the Levant pretty much all the time.

We are probably talking LATE Roman coins found with EARLY Arab coins. I would be highly sceptical that caches have been found with coins dated 800 years apart. And I just don't believe that coins from the reign of Augustus would be found with Arab coins dating to 800 AD. If you can point to any actual examples of such a wide discrepancy in dating within the same cache, of course, I will stand corrected.

Leo Caesius said:
They tend to hold onto money there. Up until fairly recently (post WWII) the prefered tender in much of the Middle East was the Maria Theresa thaler or riyal nimsawi.

The Maria Theresa Thaler was produced for over 200 years. The fact that Arabs were using them in the mid-20th Century does not mean they were using 200 year old coins.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Well, Robert, as it happens Mira Waner and Ze'ev Safrai of Tel Aviv University recently did some research on the "shelf life" of coin hoards (that is, how long these coins had been in circulation before they were hoarded) and found a number of hoards with a shelf-life greater than 500 years. The Gush Halav hoard (published by G. Bijovsky in Atiqot 35 (1998): 77-106) had coins ranging from 80 BCE to 551 CE. Another hoard, found at Ptolemais by Charles Colbert, had coins ranging in date from 162 BCE to 370 CE. That was published in the Israel Numismatic Journal 1.4 (1963): 75-79. Generally speaking, however, shelf lives of more than 300 years are rather infrequent, if not unheard of. I can probably find more examples from outside of Israel if you're interested.
 

Faeelin

Banned
robertp6165 said:
If the Arabs discovered it, where are the Arab writings reporting it? Chinese "hearsay" evidence is not very convincing. The Chinese also reported that one of their philosophers launched himself into space aboard a rocket powered throne, which obviously didn't happen. There is not any more reason to believe in these stories.

Actually, Muslim Sevillians had legends of a land full of Copper skinned men who lived like savages to their west.
 
1. In the year 889 AD, Muslim sailor Khishkhash ibn Said ibn Aswad Al-Qurtuby (of Cordoba) set sail from the port of Palos in Muslim Spain and reached a certain land in the west. He returned home with huge treasures. He drew a world map calling these areas in the Atlantic Ocean "the unknown land". The Muslim geo-historian Al-Masoudy records this in his book "Muruj-al-Dhahab wa Maadin Aljawhar"(956 AD);"Some people feel that this ocean is the source of all oceans and in it there have been many strange happenings. We have reported some of them in our book Akhbar az-Zaman. Adventurers have penetrated it on the risk of their lives, some returning safely, others perishing in the attempt. One such man was art inhabitant of Andalusia named Khashkhash. He was a young man of Cordoba who gathered a group of young men and went on a voyage on this ocean. After a long time he returned with a fabulous booty. Every Spaniard (Andalusian) knows his story."

Robert, I still don't know why are so valiantly agianst pre-viking contact with the New World...Hatti has the Wealth, The Rescources, and the Right Government to begin or kick off Colonization of the Americas.

I can most definatley see Khashkah returning from his Trans-Atlantic Voyage, and telling The Great King of Hatti of his Journey and asking him for the proper funding of another Voyage...The Great King of Hatti would be an Idoit to not take this oppurtunity..

It's only allittle more than a century before the Vikings, but just enough to make so pretty large Impacts...The Hittites could introduce, smallox and the 9ther old world diseases to the Mississippians, giving enough time for them to recouver and possibly unite against the Vikings.
 
DominusNovus said:
I like things the way they are. Its a bit cliche to have early contact anyway.

Just my 2 cents.

Yeah...The Problem with waiting is that they longer they wait...the more advanced their technology...The more devastaing their arrival in the Americas might be.

See If they go early they have to deal with totaly different beasts, The Maya...Chimu...Anasazi....and the Mississipians that me be able to hold it down during this TL.
 
Historico said:
Robert, I still don't know why are so valiantly agianst pre-viking contact with the New World...Hatti has the Wealth, The Rescources, and the Right Government to begin or kick off Colonization of the Americas.

I can most definatley see Khashkah returning from his Trans-Atlantic Voyage, and telling The Great King of Hatti of his Journey and asking him for the proper funding of another Voyage...The Great King of Hatti would be an Idoit to not take this oppurtunity..

It's only allittle more than a century before the Vikings, but just enough to make so pretty large Impacts...The Hittites could introduce, smallox and the 9ther old world diseases to the Mississippians, giving enough time for them to recouver and possibly unite against the Vikings.

Let's approach this from a different angle. The position of the Hittite Empire geographically argues against an effort by the Hittites to colonize America. Historically, it was the nations on the Atlantic or Pacific seaboards...England, France, Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands, Sweden, Russia...which established colonies in America. The nations of the Mediterranean didn't. There were many reasons for that, but certainly a nation located at the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea is going to have a vastly different outlook on the world and different priorities with regard to lands it might want to occupy than would a nation located on the Atlantic seaboard. So the Hittites will tend to look to their immediate surroundings when considering expansion, rather than reaching across the Atlantic.
 
robertp6165 said:
Let's approach this from a different angle. The position of the Hittite Empire geographically argues against an effort by the Hittites to colonize America. Historically, it was the nations on the Atlantic or Pacific seaboards...England, France, Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands, Sweden, Russia...which established colonies in America. The nations of the Mediterranean didn't. There were many reasons for that, but certainly a nation located at the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea is going to have a vastly different outlook on the world and different priorities with regard to lands it might want to occupy than would a nation located on the Atlantic seaboard. So the Hittites will tend to look to their immediate surroundings when considering expansion, rather than reaching across the Atlantic.


Well...Look who the Hittite's are surrounded by...The Caliphate, and If im not mistaked you played the cards in the last installment for the Ummayds not to break up but to stay united under their brand of Christainity.

The Hittite Merchants are very curius and might just stumble on the Spice Islands, or Madagascar, or even Great Zimbabwe to the South. Technology is the key to the Hittites expansion.

Also, What Powers would be able to do the Expansion in this TL...The Neo Puinc Pseudobyzantine Roman Empire. The Mysterious Brittany? or The Norse....When it boils down to it, It's almost the exactly the same powers taht colonized the New world in the "Ancient Egypt survives to the Present Day" TL. I would like to see some Originiality and the best coming from this TL, and I hope we are stirring up some new Ideas...to make this TL more intresting.

These arguments, really got me anticipating an nother Installmet*(I can't wait to see what happens next)
 
Historico said:
Well...Look who the Hittite's are surrounded by...The Caliphate, and If im not mistaked you played the cards in the last installment for the Ummayds not to break up but to stay united under their brand of Christainity.

Not necessarily. The same sort of conflicts which tore the OTL Caliphate apart are probably still there...conflicts between Arab Muslims (represented by the Ummayads) and non-Arab Muslims (who formed the power base for the Abbasids).

Historico said:
The Hittite Merchants are very curius and might just stumble on the Spice Islands, or Madagascar, or even Great Zimbabwe to the South.

The Spice Islands, quite likely, since they are (or were, before they lost contol of the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf) definitely carrying on some sea trade with India and China. Madagascar and Zimbabwe...probably not.

Historico said:
Technology is the key to the Hittites expansion.

Quite possibly the key to their survival.

Historico said:
Also, What Powers would be able to do the Expansion in this TL...The Neo Puinc Pseudobyzantine Roman Empire. The Mysterious Brittany? or The Norse....When it boils down to it, It's almost the exactly the same powers taht colonized the New world in the "Ancient Egypt survives to the Present Day" TL. I would like to see some Originiality and the best coming from this TL, and I hope we are stirring up some new Ideas...to make this TL more interesting.

Well, that's assuming that I even decide to take this timeline down that path. There is nothing that says we have to have an early colonization of America in every timeline. That's not really the point of this timeline, anyway. The Norse might follow their OTL pattern and not stay in North America, for example. The successor states of the Roman Empire might discover America in 1492, for that matter. Possibly the way to be "original," since you are comparing this to the Egypt timeline, is to not have them discover America at all until a later period and see how the industrial revolution proceeds without the resources of America to push it along.
 
robertp6165 said:
Well, that's assuming that I even decide to take this timeline down that path. There is nothing that says we have to have an early colonization of America in every timeline. That's not really the point of this timeline, anyway. The Norse might follow their OTL pattern and not stay in North America, for example. The successor states of the Roman Empire might discover America in 1492, for that matter. Possibly the way to be "original," since you are comparing this to the Egypt timeline, is to not have them discover America at all until a later period and see how the industrial revolution proceeds without the resources of America to push it along.

That was pretty convincing Robert...I think now I really looking forward to what you decide to do. Like you said, This TL was never ment to go to the Present Day...But to exist long enough to make some significant changes to the world of OTL(Which it already has)

Maybe they could meet their end at the Mongols(Don't let the turks have all the glory) But, even if the Hittites meet their end at the Mongols, wouldn't their achievments be burned and destroyed by the horde?

So...The Question is can we find such an Powerful enemy to destroy over 1,500 years of rule under the Third Hittie Empire...But respectable enough to absorb the culture and continue the advancements without Hatti( That might be an good way to see Hellas continue, or even an unkown country not revealed to us at the moment?
 
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