WI: A Third Hittite Empire is established.

Phaeton said:
I have asome more questions Robert

1.With Egypt being under control the Nubians for an much longer time period than in OTL, the countries reserves should be coming steadily now that the two counties are united right? Would an Kushite king send a fleet simmilar to that of Pharoah Necho II like OTL .

2. How stable is The Hittite economy ?

3. With The UHK being reunited, would it be wise for them to become more expansionist and possibly conquer the lands of Sheba(OTL Yemen and some of Ethopia ?

1) Egypt will be under the Kushites longer, but will still be out by the end of the upcoming century. If the fleet gets sent, Necho will send it. The Kushites probably would not have done that...they did not really maintain relations with peoples like the Greeks or the Phoenicians who would have given them ideas like that.

2) Pretty stable. They have good agricultural areas, and are situated on important trade routes.

3) The Hebrews have been pretty much devastated by the wars of the last two centuries (the wars with Damascus, primarily). The people of the former Kingdom of Israel, for example, have taken large losses and are very weak, and Judah has not escaped unscathed, either. So the Hebrews are not really in a position to do any expanding for a while. The only reason the Hittites are letting them remain independent is that they make a good buffer state between themselves and the Egyptians.

BTW, I am putting the finishing touches on the next installment, hope to have it posted later tonight.
 
THE THIRD HITTITE EMPIRE, PART THREE

NEOHITTITE TIMELINE, PART THREE

c. 700 BC onwards--Cimmerian invasions of Anatolia and Mesopotamia.

700 BC--Death of Pharaoh Shabaka of Egypt/Kush. He is succeeded by Sabataka. The
Cimmerians invade Urartu again and once again, devastate the kingdom. But they are
unable to take the fortified cities, and the kingdom survives, for the time being. Seeing
what is happening in the neighboring kingdom, King Suhis Tesub I of Hatti orders a
reorganization of the Hittite army. The chariot force is disbanded and converted to
cavalry (each chariot demobilized allows two cavalrymen to be added to the army). Also
at this time, King Suhis Tesub I demands, and receives, tribute from the Phoenician
city-states on the Lebanese coast. From this date onward, the Phoenician cities will be
(although nominally independent) virtual vassals of the Great King of Hatti.

699 BC--Death of King Shuttruk Nahhunte II of Elam. He is succeeded by Khallushu.

697 BC--Also in this year, the Cimmerians invade Hatti, but are defeated by the recently
revamped Hittite army, which has a much larger preponderance of cavalry and is much
more mobile. King Suhis Tesub I then bribes the Cimmerians and gives them free
passage over his lands to attack the Phrygian Kingdom, which has been a constant thorn
in the side of Hatti since King Mita III ascended the throne almost 40 years ago.

695 BC--The Cimmerians sack the kingdom of Phrygia and settle there. King Mita
(Midas) III commits suicide in his capital at Gordium when the city falls to the
Cimmerians. He is succeeded by Gordios IV, who reigns as a weak vassal of the
Cimmerians.

c. 695 BC--King Gyges of Lydia, who has reigned as the vassal of King Mita III of
Phrygia since 718 BC, establishes the independence of Lydia at the death of King Mita.
The new king of Phrygia, Gordios IV, is unable to restore Phrygian rule in the area.
Gyges of Lydia will war with the Cimmerians throughout his reign.

695-694 BC--War between Elam and Babylonia. King Marduk-apal-iddina II of Babylon
is defeated and killed, and Elam conquers Babylonia. King Khallushu of Elam installs
the first of a series of vassal kings on the Babylonian throne, who takes the throne as
Nergal-Ushezib.

694 BC--Pharaoh Sabataka of Egypt/Kush invades the United Hebrew Kingdom and lays
siege to Jerusalem. King Hezekiah calls on his ally, King Suhis Tesub I of Hatti, and
together the allies once again defeat the invading Egyptian/Kushite forces. Sabataka
retreats to Egypt, and the Hebrews are left in peace for a while.

693 BC--Death of King Khallushu of Elam. He is succeeded by King Kutir Nakhkhunte.
Also in this year, the vassal king of the Elamites in Babylon, Nergal-Ushezib, attempts a
rebellion but is defeated. The Elamites formally annex Babylonia into the Elamite
Empire. The Elamites install Mushezib-Marduk I as their vassal king at Babylon.
Mushezib-Marduk I will prove a loyal vassal for the Elamite kings, and will enjoy a long
reign.

692 BC--Death of King Kutir Nakhkhunte of Elam. He is succeeded by Khumma
Menanu.

690 BC--Death of King Suhis Tesub I of Hatti, he is succeeded by his son, Suhis Tesub
II. Also in this year, the Cimmerian chieftain Dugdamme deposes and murders King
Gordios IV of Phrygia, ending the Phrygian dynasty. Dugdamme declares himself King
and the land is renamed Cimmeria. Under Dugdamme’s rule, the Cimmerians will
continue to raid the neighboring kingdom of Lydia, with various degrees of success.

689 BC--Death of King Khumma Menanu of Elam. He is succeeded by Khumma
Khaldash I.

688 BC--Death of Pharaoh Sabataka of Egypt/Kush. He is succeeded by his nephew,
Taharka. Taharka will prove a very aggressive ruler and will attempt to establish
Egyptian control over Palestine and Syria.

687-670 BC--War between Elam and Urartu over the disputed border between the two
Empires. Urartu will not survive (see entries below).

686 BC--Death of King Hezekiah of the Hebrews. He is succeeded by his son, who takes
the throne as King Manasseh. Manasseh was very impressed by the “divine protectionâ€
his father, a loyal follower of the Hebrew national god, Yahweh, seemed to enjoy, and in
contrast to OTL, will go down in history as an extremely pious ruler.

685 BC--Death of King Argishtis II of Urartu. He is succeeded by Rusas II. Rusas II will
be the last king of Urartu.

685-679 BC--War between Egypt and Hatti. Pharaoh Taharka invades the United
Hebrew Kingdom in 685 BC. King Manasseh once again invokes the alliance with Hatti,
and King Suhis Tesub II leads a Hittite army southward in 684 BC, defeating the
Egyptians near the town of Hazor and forcing them to retreat back to Egypt. Taharka,
however, doesn’t give up. He intrigues with the Kings of the Philistine cities (who are
tributary to the Hebrews) and the Phoenician city-states (who are tributary to Hatti), and
in 682 BC rebellions break out in those regions. Taharka lands troops to support the
Phoenicians while leading the main Egyptian into Palestine yet again. The strategy is
temporarily successful, and because the Hittites are busy putting down the Phoenicians,
Jerusalem is captured in 681 BC, and Taharka establishes Egyptian control over most of
Palestine. King Manasseh escapes to the fortress city of Lachish, where he withstands a
siege. In 679 BC, however, King Suhis Tesub II leads the main Hittite army southward
once again, and once again, the Egyptians are defeated. Taharka retreats once again, and
this time is pursued by the Hittite army, who once again defeat the Egyptians at Pelusium.
Taharka then sues for peace, and a treaty is agreed upon, ending the war. King Manasseh
is restored to his throne.

681 BC--Death of King Khumma Khaldash I of Elam, he is succeeded by Khumma
Khaldash II.

676 BC--King Khumma Khaldash II of Elam is assassinated and the throne is usurped by
Shilhak-In-Shushinak, a general in the Elamite army.

675 BC--Death of King Deioces of the Medes. He is succeeded by Phraortes, who in
alliance with Elam, will destroy Urartu. Also in this year, Pharaoh Taharka of Egypt
leads his army into Palestine once again. This time it is just a raid, however...the
Egyptians sack a few towns and then take their booty back to Egypt before the Hittites
can intervene.

c. 675 BC--The Persians, a group of Indo-European tribes related to the Medes, move into
the Elamite region known as Anshan. Their chieftain, Hakhamanish (Achaemenes to the
Greeks) is recognized as King of Anshan by King Shilhak-In-Shushinak of Elam, and
becomes vassal of the Elamite King.

673 BC--King Shilhak-In-Shushinak of Elam, who is at war with Urartu, makes an
alliance with King Phraortes of the Medes against Urartu. The tide of war turns
decisively against Urartu. Urartu, which has never really recovered from the devastation
wrought by the Cimmerians 30 years ago, is utterly defeated within three years. The
fortified towns of Urartu are taken and sacked, and the people either killed or enslaved.

670 BC--Tushpa, the capital city of Urartu, falls. In the fighting King Rusas II is killed,
ending the Urartian dynasty. Urartu disappears from the map, and is divided between the
Elamites (who take the old Assyrian lands conquered by Urartu in the last century) and
the Medes (who take the Urartian homeland itself).

c. 670 BC--Miletus (Greek city on the Aegean Coast of Asia Minor) begins founding
colonies both in the Black Sea and in the Mediterranean Sea.

666 BC--Death of King Suhis Tesub II of Hatti, he is succeeded by his son, Ura
Tarhundas II.

665-660 BC--641-637 BC--Over years, Hatti has had much contact with the Greeks,
especially through the trading settlement founded by the Greeks at Al-Mina in Syria.
These contacts have increased dramatically recently as the Hittites have come into direct
contact with the Greek cities of Ionia. One major impact of this is the increasing
availability of Greek mercenaries to the Hittite kings. Up to now these have been hired
directly, to serve as a small, but important portion of the Hittite infantry. But in 665 BC,
the new King Ura Tarhundas II decides to re-organize, re-train, and re-equip the Hittite
infantry on the Greek model. Greek mercenary officers and Greek armorers are hired, and
the reorganization will be completed within five years. The new army thus created is the
most powerful in the near east. The infantry phalanx is supported by a force of armored
foot archers, as well as by light cavalry archers and armored cavalry armed with lance and
bow. It is a highly flexible, disciplined and dangerous force.

663 BC--King Mushezib-Marduk I of Babylon dies. King Shilhak-In-Shushinak of Elam
allows his son, Mushezib-Marduk II, to assume the throne as Elam’s vassal ruler.

660 BC--Pharaoh Taharka of Egypt/Kush dies, and is succeeded by Tamwetamani.
Tamwetamani will be a weak king, and the neighbors of Egypt will enjoy a period of
relative peace during his reign.

c. 660-625 BC--Scythian invasions of Anatolia, Iran, and Mesopotamia. The Scythians
are beaten back by the Elamites in Mesopotamia and the Hittites in Anatolia, but they
temporarily bring the Medes under their control, and greatly weaken the Kingdom of
Elam.

c. 660 BC--King Gyges of Lydia introduces the world's first standardized money, in the
form of electrum coins, stamped with the king's seal. The idea will eventually spread
throughout the world, and replace barter economies with money economies.Â*

659 BC--Death of King Dugdamme of Cimmeria. He is succeeded by his son, who rules
as King Dugdamme II.

657 BC--Megara founds Byzantium.

654 BC--Carthage, a colony of the Phoenician city of Tyre located in OTL Tunisia on the
North African coast, founds a colony in the Balearic Islands at Ibiza.

653 BC--Death of King Shilhak-In-Shushinak of Elam. He is succeeded by
Khumbanigash II. Also in this year, Pharaoh Tamwetamani of Egypt/Kush dies. He is
succeeded by Atlanersa. Atlanersa, like his father, will be a weak ruler, and will not
engage in aggression against his neighbors. Also in this year, King Phraortes of the
Medes dies, and is succeeded by Cyaxares.

652 BC--King Gyges of Lydia is killed in battle with the Cimmerians. His capital at
Sardis is sacked, but the crown prince, Ardys, escapes, and the Lydians are able to
recover within a few years.

651 BC--Death of King Khumbanigash II of Elam. He is succeeded by
Atta-Khumma-In-Shushinak.

650 BC--Death of King Ura Tarhundas II of Hatti. He is succeeded by his son, Kuzi
Tesub. Also in this year, Perdiccas Temenid founds the Macedonian kingdom with capital
at Aegeae (Vergina).

649 BC--Rebellion of Babylonia against Elam. The revolt is crushed.Â* Also in this year,
King Cyaxares of the Medes re-establishes Median independence from the Scythians.

649-642 BC--King Dugdamme II of Cimmeria, thinking that the new king of Hatti might
be easy pickings, attacks Hatti. King Kuzi Tesub proves to be more than Dugdamme
bargained for, and the Cimmerians are severely defeated. Kuzi Tesub then allies himself
with King Ardys of Lydia and launches a series of yearly campaigns into Cimmeria,
aimed at the destruction of that kingdom and the final elimination of the Cimmerian
threat once and for all. The Hittite capture the Cimmerian capital at Gordium in 642 BC,
and King Dugdamme is slain. Kuzi Tesub occupies all of the former lands of Phrygia
shortly thereafter. The Cimmerians cease to be a threat, and will eventually be absorbed
into the population of Anatolia under Hittite rule. King Ardys of Lydia is not happy at not
gaining much of anything from the war, but is unable to do anything about it.

648 BC--Death of King Atta-Khumma-In-Shushinak of Elam. He is succeeded by
Indabigash.

647 BC--Death of King Indabigash of Elam. He is succeeded by Khumma Khaldash III.

643-620 BC--War between Elam and the Medes. The Medes, under King Cyaxares, will
totally defeat and conquer Elam over a period of 23 years, aided by rebellions by the
Kings of Anshan and Babylon which force the Elamites to fight a war on three fronts.

643 BC--Death of Pharaoh Atlanersa of Egypt/Kush. He is succeeded by
Senkamanisken. Senkamanisken will once again begin to interfere in Palestine in Syria,
financing rebellious Philistine and Phoenician kings (these revolts will be crushed, but
will cause much inconvenience to the Hebrew and Hittite kings). These activities will
eventually lead the King of Hatti to reply in kind, with dramatic consequences.

642 BC--Death of King Manasseh of the Hebrews. He is succeeded by his son, Amon.
Unlike his father, Amon is not a faithful follower of Yahweh, and he quickly stirs up
resentment against himself.

640 BC--King Amon of the Hebrews is assassinated. He is succeeded by his son, Josiah.
Josiah will prove a pious and popular King. Also in this year, King Hakhamanish of the
Persians dies, and is succeeded by his son, Kurush (Greek--Cyrus) I. Also in this year,
Sparta adopts a militaristic form of government.

638 BC--Death of King Mushezib-Marduk II of Babylon. He is succeeded by his son,
Nabu-Nasir II, who also reigns as the vassal of the kings of Elam. Also in this year, King
Kuzi Tesub of Hatti invades Lydia. King Ardys is defeated in battle, and is besieged in
his capital at Sardis. Ardys, recognizing that he cannot prevail against the might of Hatti,
offers to submit to the Great King, and the offer is accepted. Lydia remains nominally
independent, but will be a vassal state of the Hittite Empire.

635-625 BC--In a series of campaigns which span a decade, King Kuzi Tesub of Hatti
reduces the Greek cities of Ionia to vassalage. Like Lydia, they remain nominally
independent, but pay tribute to the Great King of Hatti, who they recognize as their
overlord.

632 BC--Athens abolishes the monarchy in favor of an oligarchy.

631-622 BC--Revolution in Egypt. For the past century, Egypt has chafed under the rule
of the foreign kings of Kush (who are reigning in Egypt as the 25th Dynasty). The city of
Sais has as it’s nomarch a man named Psamtik, who is descended from the last Pharaoh
of the Saite 24th Dynasty. He has been for some time, intriguing with King Kuzi Tesub
of Hatti, seeking support for a rebellion against the Kushite rulers of Egypt. Psamtik has
gained financial support for his efforts, but no promise of troops or other direct aid.
However, the financial aid proves to be enough. Psamtik builds an army around a core of
Greek mercenaries, and in 631 BC marches against the forces of Pharaoh Senkamanisken.
Senkamanisken is defeated outside Memphis, and flees to the south, setting up his base at
Thebes. Psamtik is left in control of Lower Egypt (the Delta Region), where he declares
himself Pharaoh, beginning the 26th Dynasty. For the next nine years, there will be
warfare between Upper Egypt (under Senkamanisken) and Lower Egypt (under Psamtik).

631 BC to 609 BC--In a long reign, Pharaoh Psamtik I establishes the pattern of kingship
which will prevail in the new 26th dynasty. The attitude of the Saite Pharaohs towards
the kingship will be radically different from the Egyptian tradition. The lifestyle of the
pharaohs of Sais will be much less ostentatious, to the point of being considered frugal by
contemporary writers. And there will be no return to the ancient traditions under later
kings. Psamtik will strengthen royal power over the provincial warlords and the
priesthood by abrogating feudal and clerical immunities and privileges. Psamtik will also
encourage Greek settlement within Egypt. Psamtik will make extensive use of Greek
mercenaries in the army, and Psamtik will build a cities, the greatest of which is called
Naukratis, where Greek scholars and merchants will be settled, and endow these Greek
communities with land and rights. Psamtik will also cultivate friendly relations with
Hatti, by whose aid he was able to overthrow the Kushite tyranny over Egypt.

c. 630 BC--Birth of Zarathustra (Zoroaster). Over his lifetime, Zarathustra will found a
new religion, which will become known as Zoroastrianism. Zoroastrianism is a dualistic
religion; in Zarathustra's cosmos, the universe is under the control of two contrary gods,
Ahura-Mazda, the creating god who is full of light and good, and Ahriman, the god of
dark and evil. These two evenly matched gods are in an epic struggle over creation; at the
end of time, Ahura-Mazda and his forces will emerge victorious. All of creation, all gods,
all religions, and all of human history and experience can be understood as part of this
struggle between light and dark, good and evil. Zoroastrianism, however, is a manifestly
eschatological religion; meaning and value in this world is oriented towards the end of
history and the final defeat of Ahriman and all those gods, humans, and other animate
forces arrayed on the dark side of creation. This will eventually have profound
consequences as Zoroastrianism gradually becomes the primary religion of the Persians
and their kings of the Achaemenid line. Since Zoroastrianism recognizes that all the gods
worshipped by other peoples are really gods...some as underlings of Ahura-Mazda and
some servants of Ahriman...the Persian kings will come to see as their mission the tearing
down of religions for evil gods and the shoring up of religions of gods allied with
Ahura-Mazda.

630 BC--The kings of Anshan transfer their allegiance to Cyaxares and become vassals of
the Medes. The Persians join in the war against Elam, which begins to go badly for the
latter kingdom.

c.630 BC--Greek settlers from Thera found the city of Cyrene, on the northern coast of
Libya.Â*Â*

626 BC--Revolution in Babylonia. The Chaldean chieftain Nabu-apal-usur
(Nabopolassar) overthrows the Elamite vassal king King Nabu-Nasir II, rebels against
Elam and allies himself with Cyaxares of the Medes. The forces of Elamite King
Khumma Khaldash III attempt to put down the rebellion, but are defeated outside
Babylon, and the Elamite king is killed. His son takes the throne as King Shutruk
Nahhunte III. He will be the last King of Elam.

622 BC--The reunification of Egypt. Psamtik I of the Saite 26th Dynasty, ruler of Lower
Egypt, captures Thebes, capital of Upper Egypt and seat of the Kushite 25th Dynasty.
Upper Egypt’s Pharaoh, Senkamanisken, is killed, and his successor, Anlamani, is forced
to flee to the Kushite capital of Napata. Psamtik begins wearing the Double Crown of
Egypt, symbolizing the reunification of the country under his rule. Anlamani rules as
King of Kush only.

621 BC--Death of King Kuzi Tesub of Hatti. He is succeeded by his nephew, who takes
the throne as Arnuwanda IV. Also in this year, Draco establishes the first Athenian code
of law. The code is extremely harsh (Draco's name will become synonymous with
harsh...or DRACONIAN...measures in future times).

620 BC--King Shutruk Nahhunte III of Elam is killed when the Elamite capital city of
Susa falls to the forces of the Median King Cyaxares and King Nabu-apal-usur of
Babylon. End of the Elamite dynasty...and the Elamite Kingdom. King Kurush (Cyrus) I
of Anshan (acting as the vassal of Cyaxares) and Nabu-apal-usur of Babylon divide the
the Elamite homeland between them. Babylon and the Medes divide the northern Elamite
possessions in old Assyria.

618-612 BC--Revolt of the Greek cities of Ionia against Hatti. King Ardys of Lydia joins
the revolt and allies himself with the Greeks. King Arnuwanda IV crushes the revolt,
however, and both Lydia and the Ionian Greek cities are formally annexed by the Hittite
Empire.

616 BC--The Etruscans conquer the small Latin town of Rome in Italy. Tarquinius I
Priscus becomes King of Rome. Etruscan kings will reign there for the next 100 years.Â*

610 BC--Also in this year, Miletus founds a trading post in Egypt.

609 BC--Death of Pharaoh Psamtik I of Egypt. He is succeeded by his son, who reigns as
Pharaoh Necho II (reckoning from Psamtik’s father, Necho, who was a Prince of Sais
under domination by the Kushite 25th Dynasty).

605 BC--Death of King Josiah of the Hebrews. He is succeeded by his eldest son,
Eliakim.

605-601 BC--King Arnuwanda IV of Hatti invades and conquers the island of Cyprus.

605-600 BC--Pharaoh Necho II of Egypt has renewed Egypt’s ties to the Phoenician
trading cities, especially Tyre and Sidon. In 605 BC, he hires Phoenician shipwrights to
build a fleet for the exploration of the African coast. The Egyptian exploration fleet is
built at an Egyptian port on the Red Sea, and in 603 BC, it sets sail. The fleet, manned by
a mixed force of Egyptian soldiers and Phoenician sailors, sails south along the African
coast. Each autumn they come ashore and plant the land in whatever part of the coast
they have reached, and there await the harvest; then, having gathered the crop, they sail
on. And so, in this manner, they circumnavigate the African continent. In 600 BC they
pass through the Pillars of Heracles (the Straits of Gibraltar) and return to Egypt.
Although they have many wondrous tales to tell, they do not bring back any news of great
value. No further expeditions are sent out by Egypt.

600 BC--Death of King Kurush (Cyrus) I of the Persians. He is succeeded by Kambujiya
(Greek-Cambyses) I. Also in this year, Rome conquers the city of Alba Longa, and
Carthage fails to prevent the establishment of the Phocaean Greek colony at Massilia
(Marseilles).
 
MAP OF THE NEAR EAST, 650 BC

STATES OF THE NEAR EAST, 650 BC

hittitemap4.jpg
 
Last edited:
Wow. It's almost the same quality as your Egypt line. I really like how you intregate the military and the political aspects within the listed timeline. I also admire how you intregate things from your Egypt line in this TL.

Questions:
1. Who are the Anashan?
2. What are their political aspects with the Persians?
3. Is Byzantium still free or under Hittite "influence"?
4. Has the Hittie moved towards organizing a navy?
5. Has the Hittie religion been altered in anyway or still the same?
6. (same question only about the Hebrews)
7. Has Sparta come around as a military power?
 
G.Bone said:
Wow. It's almost the same quality as your Egypt line. I really like how you intregate the military and the political aspects within the listed timeline. I also admire how you intregate things from your Egypt line in this TL.

Thank you. :)

G.Bone said:
Questions:
1. Who are the Anashan?

Anshan was an Elamite city and territory in southeastern Iran, in modern Fars province. It was one of the component city-states from which the Kingdom of Elam was formed (the other major one was Susa).

G.Bone said:
2. What are their political aspects with the Persians?

Anshan has been occupied by the Persians, and (as in OTL), the kings of the Achaemenid dynasty have taken the title "King of Anshan" and made the city their capital in the early years of the dynasty. In OTL they were always vassals of the Medes in this early period (because by the time of their arrival, Assyria had destroyed Elam). But in the ATL they begin as vassals of Elam, which because of the destruction of Assyria has become a powerful kingdom.

G.Bone said:
3. Is Byzantium still free or under Hittite "influence"?

Byzantium is free, for the time being. Hittite power is, for the moment, confined to the eastern side of the Aegean.

G.Bone said:
4. Has the Hittie moved towards organizing a navy?

Up until recently they haven't had much need for one. But the conquest of Cyprus would not have been possible without a navy, as the Cypriots always had a fleet. The Hittites are getting most of their naval strength right now from the Phoenician city states, which are vassals of the Great King of Hatti. Kind of like the Persians did in OTL.

G.Bone said:
5. Has the Hittie religion been altered in anyway or still the same?

Well, the core religion is still pretty much the same as in the original Hittite Empire. But many new gods and goddesses have been added through contact with peoples like the Canaanites, Aramaeans, Assyria, Phrygia, Lydia, Greece, etc. Teshub (by this time the spelling of which has been corrupted to "Tesub") the thunder god is still the supreme deity.

G.Bone said:
6. (same question only about the Hebrews)

Up until recently, the Hebrew religion has developed pretty much as in OTL. However, since the reunification of the Kingdom under Hezekiah, some butterflies have started to take off. Manasseh...in strong contrast to the OTL, where he was portrayed as very wicked...for example, turns out as a very pious king and greatly strengthens the Yahweh cult during his reign...so much so that when his son tries to go back to idol-worshipping, he is assasinated.

G.Bone said:
7. Has Sparta come around as a military power?

Sparta is on that road. It conquered Messenia and enslaved the helots in the 700s BC, and the reforms of Lycurgus (which created the Spartan military state that became so famous in history) took place in the 600s.
 
Tom_B said:
I eventually lose interest in ancient TL's which insist on making it to "now". Some people on this Board like those so it's a matter of taste.

But you are a long way from that point and I am still very interested in this project.

Well, I certainly won't carry this one that far. I don't think the Hittites had as much potential as Egypt to last to the modern day. Besides...it took me months to finish my Egyptian timeline. I'm not ready to bite off that much of a project again so soon. :eek: I just haven't decided whether the Persians, Greeks, Macedonians or Romans will give them the coup de grace.
 
What about have them, being sucked up by the huns or The Caliphate. It would be more interesting in my opinoin.
 
Just some thoughts

We are at around 600 B.C., but the butterflies have probably carried away the Persian Empire as we know it. Would a strong Hittite presence cause the Persians to focus their expansion to the East and North, or would the two Empires engage in a sort of struggle that would weaken both?

Also, with stronger Hitties, the Greek Aegean city states are going to be clients (as Troy was 800 years earlier), so what does this mean to the expansion of Greek commercial settlements?

The Macedonians have so far been largely untouched, but we know that they are culturally alligned with Greece, although the Greeks consider them barbarians. If the Hittite push west, do the Greeks turn to the Macedonians for help, involving them on the world stage a little earier than OTL?

Finally, what about Carthage? This was a Phoenician related development, yet we have the phoenicians under the Hittite hegemony. Does it go away or does it become a meditteraenean power sooner?
 
Norman said:
We are at around 600 B.C., but the butterflies have probably carried away the Persian Empire as we know it. Would a strong Hittite presence cause the Persians to focus their expansion to the East and North, or would the two Empires engage in a sort of struggle that would weaken both?

Well, I think the Persian Empire is still going to arise. The process by which it arises will be somewhat different. But the impetus which was, in large part responsible for it...Zoroastrianism...is still there. The Achaemenid dynasty is established in Anshan, as in OTL. So the basic elements are there. If the Hittites survive the Persian onslaught, then I imagine they will expand to the east and north, if they cannot expand westward, while at the same time warring with the Hittites to the west.

Norman said:
Also, with stronger Hitties, the Greek Aegean city states are going to be clients (as Troy was 800 years earlier), so what does this mean to the expansion of Greek commercial settlements?

Most if not all of these settlements have already been founded by this time. So the ATL has not had an impact on this. The city states of mainland Greece are not under Hittite hegemony, and indeed may or may not prove to be a powerful foe of the Hittites eventually, as they were for the Persians.

Norman said:
The Macedonians have so far been largely untouched, but we know that they are culturally alligned with Greece, although the Greeks consider them barbarians. If the Hittite push west, do the Greeks turn to the Macedonians for help, involving them on the world stage a little earier than OTL?

I would imagine they would probably react as they did when Xerxes invaded. They will submit, and possibly contribute troops to the Hittite army.

Norman said:
Finally, what about Carthage? This was a Phoenician related development, yet we have the phoenicians under the Hittite hegemony. Does it go away or does it become a meditteraenean power sooner?

Carthage was founded in the 800s BC. By the time the Hittites extend their hegemony over the Phoenician city states, it has been a going concern for about 200 years. I don't think the ATL is going to affect the development of Carthage at all (at least until the Hittites get involved in the Punic Wars...if they survive that long).
 
Phaeton said:
robert where did you find the blank map for this timeline, I need it for the next segment of My TL.

The map I am using is from here...

http://geography.about.com/library/blank/blxmiddleeast.htm

I copied the map as a 24 bit bitmap file, went into my photoeditor program and cropped it to remove the areas on the periphery I didn't plan to use, and then went into Microsoft paint and erased all the national boundaries. Then I just drew my own boundaries and coloured them in. When I uploaded each map here, I saved it as a JPEG first, then uploaded it.

The maps at the following link are pretty good too...I got my world map which I used for the Egyptian timeline from here...

http://geography.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~ckk/maps.html
 
Here's another possible POD For this topic


After the untimely death of her to-be-famous husband, Tutankhanmon, his
young widow, Anches-en-Amon (who was the daughter of the heretic pharaoh
Achenaten and Nefertiti) was expected to remarry. The politics of the
dynasty dictated that she should marry her grandfather Eje (father of
Nefertiti and most likely the real power behind the throne of
tutanchamon), but Anches-en-Amon did a thing unheard of in all of
Egypt's history.

She wrote a letter to the Hittite king Suppiluliumas, who had restored
and vastly expanded the decayed Hittite empire, asking him to send one
of his sons to become her husband and pharaoh of Egypt. This had never
happened before in Egypt; although earlier pharaohs had on occasion
found their wife outside of the kingdom, the supreme ruler of Egypt had
always been an Egyptian.

We don't know the reasons for Anches-en-Amon's actions, but we can think
of several: Eje was 69 at the time of Tutanchamon's death, and
Anches-en-Amon was not even 20; the prospect of marrying this old man
must not have appealed to her greatly. Eje had usurped all power from
the teen rulers, which must not have made him very popular with
Anches-en-Amon either. And finally, it has long been suspected that Eje
had a hand in Tutanchamon's death (modern research seems on his mummy
seems to indicate he was murdered); imagine Anches-en-Amons feeling,
having to marry the man who had killed her husband.

King Suppiluliumas apparently was highly surprised by the request (we
don't have his actual answer, but we can reconstruct it from
Anches-en-Amon's second letter), but he finally granted the queen's
request and sent one of his sons, Zannanza, with an escort to her.

Zannanza never made it to Egypt: He was murdered on the border, most
likely upon orders of Eje, who married Anches-en-Amon. The rest is
typical Egyptian history: Eje himself is assasinated and after several
bloody changes of power Ramses and later his grandson Ramses II will
make Egypt a superpower again.

It can very well be that the murder of Zannanza is one of those
turnpoint events in history. What if he had made it to Egypt and had
married Anches-en-Amon?

A few interesting remarks: The Hittites were not just any other
Anatolian tribe; they controlled a large empire during the second
millennium BC and have had important influences on our Western culture.
For one thing, the Hittites were Indo-Europeans and their language has
strong relations with modern Germanic languages (they did use cuneiform
writing, but only to transcribe their own language - a bit like how the
Chinese would transpose English words into their ideograms). After the
fall of their empire, the Hittites sort of disappeared, but it has been
proposed (for the first time by the Roman historian Tacitus) that at
least part of the people migrated to central and northern Europe; there
is even a linguistic correlation between the names "Hittites" and the
Germanic tribe, the "Hessen".

The Hittites were also intimately involved in the Trojan War: Troj was,
if not an actual Hittite city ("Taruisa" and "Wilusa" are names on
Hittite clay tablets, which could refer to "Troas" and "Wilion", both
old names for Troj; the Hittites also mention the "Achiawer", which
transposes to "Achaiwoi", Homerian name for the Greeks), then most
certainly tributary to the Hittite empire. Would the Trojan war have
ended as it did if the powers of the Hittites _and_ Egypt stould behind
it?

And then there is the intriguing correlation between the monotheism of
the heretic-pharaoh Achenaten and the Hebrew monotheism. We know that
several semitic tribes had migrated into Egypt during or shortly after
the invasions of the mysterious Hyksos. It is not inconceivable that one
of those tribes chose the side of Achenaten and adopted his religion.
After the restauration of the old religion (by Eje!), they might have
secretly kept to their old ways and even intensified their beliefs
because of their illegality. What could have happened if Achenaten's
daughter, rather than become a trophy wife for the champion of the
Restauration, had remained in power?

Another important factor is the political philosophy of the Hittites:
Rather than being an absolute monarch as in Egypt (or everywhere else in
Asia Minor for that matter), the Hittite king was more akin to a modern
constitutional monarch: his powers were kept in check by several
institutions, some of them even almost democratic!). What would an
injection of democracy have meant for Egypt?

This has been a long post, and - unfortunately - quite eclectic in some
parts. I don't have any answers to the questions I have asked, but I
think they might lead down some interesting Trouserlegs of Time
 
Phaeton said:
So hows the next segment comming?

I am working on it. I was in an auto accident last Thursday and my back is kind of messed up, which makes it difficult to sit at my computer for more than a few minutes at the time. So it is going slower than I would like it to. But I will get it done soon.
 
Phaeton said:
Here's another possible POD For this topic


After the untimely death of her to-be-famous husband, Tutankhanmon, his
young widow, Anches-en-Amon (who was the daughter of the heretic pharaoh
Achenaten and Nefertiti)...wrote a letter to the Hittite king Suppiluliumas, who had restored
and vastly expanded the decayed Hittite empire, asking him to send one
of his sons to become her husband and pharaoh of Egypt...
King Suppiluliumas apparently was highly surprised by the request (we
don't have his actual answer, but we can reconstruct it from
Anches-en-Amon's second letter), but he finally granted the queen's
request and sent one of his sons, Zannanza, with an escort to her.

Zannanza never made it to Egypt: He was murdered on the border, most
likely upon orders of Eje, who married Anches-en-Amon. The rest is
typical Egyptian history: Eje himself is assasinated and after several
bloody changes of power Ramses and later his grandson Ramses II will
make Egypt a superpower again.

It can very well be that the murder of Zannanza is one of those
turnpoint events in history. What if he had made it to Egypt and had
married Anches-en-Amon?

Well, this would be an interesting POD, but not for the current topic...which is how to establish a THIRD Hittite Empire. It might be a POD for a topic on how to establish a longer-lived SECOND Hittite Empire. Or simply as a POD in and of itself...What if Egypt and Hatti had been united under a single rule?
 
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