Alright, this is not a new thread, but on the old board it was unfinished. I do wish to finish it and do hope that all those who chipped in on the old board will help again (and any newcomers are most welcome).
Basically on the old thread I found about 3 possible PODs for an Anglo-Dutch union. They were in order of date (starting from the first possible POD I know of):
(1) Elizabeth I sends over a viceroy who the dutch like in the 1580's. [This was submitted by Scott Blair].
"Here's what happened involving elizabeth, from what I found on a site about the history of the low countries:
"In 1582 the General Estates (parliament) of the Netherlands finally renounced the King of Spain, for violating the ancient priviliges of the Provinces. They introduced a new suzerain for all the Netherlands provinces. The (Catholic) French Duke of Anjou, a youger brother of the French King assumed the Lordship over all Seventeen Provinces. It would be silly for him to adopt the title Duke of Burgundy, since Burgundy was no longer a part of the lands that came forth from the Burgundian inheritance, so he was known as the Duke of Brabant, since long the central state of the Provinces. Of course he also took titles for all the other provinces. He wasn't a complacent suzerain and interfered in the affairs of State in a way not to the liking of the General Estates and the Prince of Orange. When he died the suzerainty was offered to the English Queen Elisabeth. She sent her favorite crony the Earl of Leicester. An even more meddlesome fellow than Anjou had been. In the meantime the Prince of Orange was murdered by a Spanish agent, and succeeded by his son Maurice, as Stadtholder of Holland and Zealand and Head of the army. When Leicester was tossed out in 1588, the actions of the new Spanish Governor Requesens and his General Alexander Duke of Parma had greatly reduced the territory of the Uprising."
http://home.wanadoo.nl/gerard.vonhebel/benelux1588.htm
(2) William III and Mary I. (3) Prince William IV and Anne of Hannover (daughter of King George II of Great Britain).
William III, stadholder in the Dutch Republic and cousin and husband to Mary Stuart who was James II's daughter. As we should all know James II was kicked out and Mary and William became co-rulers of Britain. They had no children and the pair were succeeded by Mary's sister Anne who also had no children (and she was the last Stuart monarch of England and Scotland (it was under her that the Act of Union came about by the way)). After that the House of Brunswick, Hanover line came to rule Britain starting with George I from Hanover.
I seem to remember that Parliament had passed some Act so that I think William's children would be the last to succeed to the throne after Mary's kids (provided she had any from another marriage apart from with William I think) and after Anne's kids. Now none of these people had children, so lets assume that William and Mary had a child. Wouldn't this child succeed as monarch of Britain? Most likely Anne would be Queen or maybe Regent until her death or until the child is old enough to rule on his/her own.
Also when the Stadholder-King William III died in 1702 without any heir, this ushered in the second stadholderless period in the history of the Dutch republic which lasted til 1747 (except in Friesland). In OTL William III's will left his estates and titles to his kinsman, Johan Willem Friso (1687-1711), of the Frisian branch of the family. The will was challenged, however, by King Frederick William I of Prussia, a descendant of Frederik Hendrik. Agreement still had not been reached when Johan Willem Friso drowned near the Moerdijk on his way to The Hague to negotiate a settlement. His widow, Maria Louisa of Hesse-Kassel (1688-1765), succeeded in upholding the status of the House of Orange-Nassau. The agreement on the inheritance reached with the Prussians in 1732 provided her son, Prince William IV (1711-1751), with the basis for his marriage in 1734 to Anne of Hanover (1709-1759), daughter of King George II of Great Britain. (This is the second link by the way).
I used the 2nd and 3rd PODs by the way (never learned of the first one til much later).
Now it would be nice to re-post everything that was discussed, but it is much easier to provide a direct link to the old thread whilst I only re-post the body of the TL itself. So here is the link:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discus/messages/4/1148.html
Now here is the TL:
Now Mary died of smallpox in 1694, possibly we could have her die in say 1698 of smallpox so the children are born later, but let's work with 1694.
I'll have the POD be 1692:
So William and Mary are married (Will being 12 years older than his cousin) and in 1688 James II is deposed. Parliament is then faced with a dilemma: they want the throne to be the sole possession of Mary with William as Prince Consort, but Mary refused due to her self-imposed subservience to her husband (at first after marriage under duress she thought him repulsive but came to love and respect both William and his country). William was reluctant to accept the throne by means of conquest, preferring to be named king by Parliament through birthright. Parliament succumbed to the wishes of William and Mary, and the pair acceded as co-rulers. In early 1690 William and Mary have a child, a daughter, but she dies of birth complications. In 1692 Mary again gives birth, this time to a son, named William. William III is still having an affair with one of Mary's ladies-in-waiting which shows the marriage is still not perfect(this affair ends after the birth of his son). Two years later Mary dies of smallpox leaving William III sole ruler of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland (as well as a stadholder in some Dutch provinces).
In 1702 William III died after being thrown from his horse (just as another war with France was starting). Parliament by now has established its supremacy with the Settlement Act of 1701. As William and Mary's son is only 10 now, Parliament names his aunt, Anne as Queen-regent. She is charges with ruling the country until William IV is old enough to rule on his own. Queen Anne rules from 1702 until 1710 when William IV finally reached 20 and accepted the Crown. The most prominent acheivement of Queen Anne's reign was the Act of Union between England and Scotland creating Great Britain. After 1710, Anne continued to advise her nephew until her death in 1714 (which can be considered the real "start" of William IV's sole rule). William IV is also a stadholder of some of the Dutch provinces as William III's will left his titles and estates to his son. As William is rather busy governing Britain, he leaves some of the work of Stadholder to his kinsman Johan Friso. However Friso drowned in 1711 and hos widow carried on his work and upheld the status of the House of Orange-Nassau.
1715- The late Queen-regent Anne's half brother, James the Old Pretender, claims the throne as his own and a group of legitimist Tories starts a rebellion in northern England in his name. James is in France however, and by the time he arrives in Britain, William had put down the rebellion. Even worse for the Old Pretender, French backing dried up with the death of Louis XIV. In Britain and in the Dutch republic William is rather popular and his popularity rises when he finally marries at the age of 23 to a Danish duchess (this duchess is not in line to inherit any duchy so this means no Anglo-Dutch involvement in Denmark). They have 2 children. One son and one daughter, named William and Margaret.
1716- With the rebellion over for a year, Britain settles into a period of peace with internal politics and foreign affairs being focused on by Britain's govt. Along with a period of peace came more time for William IV to go to the Dutch Republic to fulfil some of his duties as a stadholder.
1722- With William having to travel back and forth between Britain and Zeeland and Holland, he decided to create a post of Premier (Prime Minister) to run his affairs in England whilst he was in the Netherlands. The first Premier was Sir Robert Wadpole. Whilst in Britain he had Friso's widow help run his affairs in his provinces. Meanwhile William IV makes an alliance with his second cousin once removed, George the Elector of Hanover (George I on OTL).
1727- George, Elector of Hanover dies and is succeeded by his son also named George. William IV continues the alliance between Britain (and the Dutch Republic) and Hanover with his third cousin (George II of Hanover). In Britain Premier Wadpole thinks George II is a bit more rash than his father but in the interest of alliance keeps his tongue. He is vindicated however when George II declares war on Spain...
1738- Prince William of Britain (who now acts as stadholder in some of the Dutch provinces when his father is in Britain) marries a Anne of Hanover (daughter of George II of Hanover) and in 1739 he has his first son, John. The couple will have 5 children (2 die at birth). The other 2 surviving children are a boy and a girl named Willem and Augusta. The marriage to Anne reaffirms the British-Dutch-Hanoverian alliance.
1739- The period of peace in Britain and the Dutch Republic comes to a close as William IV follows through on his alliance with Hanover and declares war on Spain in 1739. The war with Spain was a component of the war of the Austrian Succession. Britain, the Dutch Republic and Hanover at this time are fighting Spain and France and the war lasts into the 1740s. The fighting came to nothing (a stalemate) and peace once again broke out until the 1750s..
1742-Wadpole retires.
1744- William IV dies and is succeeded by his son William V. William V becomes stadholder of the provinces in the Dutch Republic over which William IV was stadholder due to William IV's will. One of these provinces begins to debate whether to appoint a new stadholder, but William V (by a narrow margin in a vote) manages to retain the title of stadholder. The other provinces (Holland among them) also have voices of dissent, but with France so nearby and with a war with France so recently over, they decide to keep William V (and British automatic support) and affirm him as stadholder in a vote. His experience as a stadholder during his princehood was the second reason he was retained as stadholder.
1747- Another French invasion of the Dutch Republic is threatened and it seems for sure the French mean business. Groningen and Gelderland appoint William V as stadholder. The remaining provinces where William is not stadholder follow suit and William V becomes the first stadholder of all 7 provinces. The office of stadholder is then made officially made hereditary in the male and female lines. After this declaration the French stop threatening to invade, mostly out of fear and weariness of yet another war with Britain and Hanover so shortly after the end of the 1739 one as opposed to just punishing the Dutch.
1750s- Britain and France go to war again over imperial claims and Hanover and the Dutch republic dutifully declare war on France. There is intense fighting in Europe and some fighting in North America and India. Britain and her allies win this war against France. Britain now has dominance in North America and India and it seems that the French "threat" in Europe has been greatly diminished for now.
1758- Prince John (acting stadholder following the tradition of his father) marries his cousin, Elizabeth Caroline, daughter of Frederick Louis (son of George II of Hanover). He geniunely loves her, however Elizabeth dies within a year, childless. John withdraws in sorrow and it is not until 1765 at the urging of his father that he marries again, this time to a British noblewoman. He has no love for her and when the two children he has by her die shortly after birth, he becomes more estranged from her and focuses a lot on the Dutch Republic.
1760- George II of Hanover dies and is succeeded by his grandson, George III.
1767- William V dies and Prince John becomes King John II. In the spirit of his father he keeps the alliance with Hanover...
Basically on the old thread I found about 3 possible PODs for an Anglo-Dutch union. They were in order of date (starting from the first possible POD I know of):
(1) Elizabeth I sends over a viceroy who the dutch like in the 1580's. [This was submitted by Scott Blair].
"Here's what happened involving elizabeth, from what I found on a site about the history of the low countries:
"In 1582 the General Estates (parliament) of the Netherlands finally renounced the King of Spain, for violating the ancient priviliges of the Provinces. They introduced a new suzerain for all the Netherlands provinces. The (Catholic) French Duke of Anjou, a youger brother of the French King assumed the Lordship over all Seventeen Provinces. It would be silly for him to adopt the title Duke of Burgundy, since Burgundy was no longer a part of the lands that came forth from the Burgundian inheritance, so he was known as the Duke of Brabant, since long the central state of the Provinces. Of course he also took titles for all the other provinces. He wasn't a complacent suzerain and interfered in the affairs of State in a way not to the liking of the General Estates and the Prince of Orange. When he died the suzerainty was offered to the English Queen Elisabeth. She sent her favorite crony the Earl of Leicester. An even more meddlesome fellow than Anjou had been. In the meantime the Prince of Orange was murdered by a Spanish agent, and succeeded by his son Maurice, as Stadtholder of Holland and Zealand and Head of the army. When Leicester was tossed out in 1588, the actions of the new Spanish Governor Requesens and his General Alexander Duke of Parma had greatly reduced the territory of the Uprising."
http://home.wanadoo.nl/gerard.vonhebel/benelux1588.htm
(2) William III and Mary I. (3) Prince William IV and Anne of Hannover (daughter of King George II of Great Britain).
William III, stadholder in the Dutch Republic and cousin and husband to Mary Stuart who was James II's daughter. As we should all know James II was kicked out and Mary and William became co-rulers of Britain. They had no children and the pair were succeeded by Mary's sister Anne who also had no children (and she was the last Stuart monarch of England and Scotland (it was under her that the Act of Union came about by the way)). After that the House of Brunswick, Hanover line came to rule Britain starting with George I from Hanover.
I seem to remember that Parliament had passed some Act so that I think William's children would be the last to succeed to the throne after Mary's kids (provided she had any from another marriage apart from with William I think) and after Anne's kids. Now none of these people had children, so lets assume that William and Mary had a child. Wouldn't this child succeed as monarch of Britain? Most likely Anne would be Queen or maybe Regent until her death or until the child is old enough to rule on his/her own.
Also when the Stadholder-King William III died in 1702 without any heir, this ushered in the second stadholderless period in the history of the Dutch republic which lasted til 1747 (except in Friesland). In OTL William III's will left his estates and titles to his kinsman, Johan Willem Friso (1687-1711), of the Frisian branch of the family. The will was challenged, however, by King Frederick William I of Prussia, a descendant of Frederik Hendrik. Agreement still had not been reached when Johan Willem Friso drowned near the Moerdijk on his way to The Hague to negotiate a settlement. His widow, Maria Louisa of Hesse-Kassel (1688-1765), succeeded in upholding the status of the House of Orange-Nassau. The agreement on the inheritance reached with the Prussians in 1732 provided her son, Prince William IV (1711-1751), with the basis for his marriage in 1734 to Anne of Hanover (1709-1759), daughter of King George II of Great Britain. (This is the second link by the way).
I used the 2nd and 3rd PODs by the way (never learned of the first one til much later).
Now it would be nice to re-post everything that was discussed, but it is much easier to provide a direct link to the old thread whilst I only re-post the body of the TL itself. So here is the link:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discus/messages/4/1148.html
Now here is the TL:
Now Mary died of smallpox in 1694, possibly we could have her die in say 1698 of smallpox so the children are born later, but let's work with 1694.
I'll have the POD be 1692:
So William and Mary are married (Will being 12 years older than his cousin) and in 1688 James II is deposed. Parliament is then faced with a dilemma: they want the throne to be the sole possession of Mary with William as Prince Consort, but Mary refused due to her self-imposed subservience to her husband (at first after marriage under duress she thought him repulsive but came to love and respect both William and his country). William was reluctant to accept the throne by means of conquest, preferring to be named king by Parliament through birthright. Parliament succumbed to the wishes of William and Mary, and the pair acceded as co-rulers. In early 1690 William and Mary have a child, a daughter, but she dies of birth complications. In 1692 Mary again gives birth, this time to a son, named William. William III is still having an affair with one of Mary's ladies-in-waiting which shows the marriage is still not perfect(this affair ends after the birth of his son). Two years later Mary dies of smallpox leaving William III sole ruler of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland (as well as a stadholder in some Dutch provinces).
In 1702 William III died after being thrown from his horse (just as another war with France was starting). Parliament by now has established its supremacy with the Settlement Act of 1701. As William and Mary's son is only 10 now, Parliament names his aunt, Anne as Queen-regent. She is charges with ruling the country until William IV is old enough to rule on his own. Queen Anne rules from 1702 until 1710 when William IV finally reached 20 and accepted the Crown. The most prominent acheivement of Queen Anne's reign was the Act of Union between England and Scotland creating Great Britain. After 1710, Anne continued to advise her nephew until her death in 1714 (which can be considered the real "start" of William IV's sole rule). William IV is also a stadholder of some of the Dutch provinces as William III's will left his titles and estates to his son. As William is rather busy governing Britain, he leaves some of the work of Stadholder to his kinsman Johan Friso. However Friso drowned in 1711 and hos widow carried on his work and upheld the status of the House of Orange-Nassau.
1715- The late Queen-regent Anne's half brother, James the Old Pretender, claims the throne as his own and a group of legitimist Tories starts a rebellion in northern England in his name. James is in France however, and by the time he arrives in Britain, William had put down the rebellion. Even worse for the Old Pretender, French backing dried up with the death of Louis XIV. In Britain and in the Dutch republic William is rather popular and his popularity rises when he finally marries at the age of 23 to a Danish duchess (this duchess is not in line to inherit any duchy so this means no Anglo-Dutch involvement in Denmark). They have 2 children. One son and one daughter, named William and Margaret.
1716- With the rebellion over for a year, Britain settles into a period of peace with internal politics and foreign affairs being focused on by Britain's govt. Along with a period of peace came more time for William IV to go to the Dutch Republic to fulfil some of his duties as a stadholder.
1722- With William having to travel back and forth between Britain and Zeeland and Holland, he decided to create a post of Premier (Prime Minister) to run his affairs in England whilst he was in the Netherlands. The first Premier was Sir Robert Wadpole. Whilst in Britain he had Friso's widow help run his affairs in his provinces. Meanwhile William IV makes an alliance with his second cousin once removed, George the Elector of Hanover (George I on OTL).
1727- George, Elector of Hanover dies and is succeeded by his son also named George. William IV continues the alliance between Britain (and the Dutch Republic) and Hanover with his third cousin (George II of Hanover). In Britain Premier Wadpole thinks George II is a bit more rash than his father but in the interest of alliance keeps his tongue. He is vindicated however when George II declares war on Spain...
1738- Prince William of Britain (who now acts as stadholder in some of the Dutch provinces when his father is in Britain) marries a Anne of Hanover (daughter of George II of Hanover) and in 1739 he has his first son, John. The couple will have 5 children (2 die at birth). The other 2 surviving children are a boy and a girl named Willem and Augusta. The marriage to Anne reaffirms the British-Dutch-Hanoverian alliance.
1739- The period of peace in Britain and the Dutch Republic comes to a close as William IV follows through on his alliance with Hanover and declares war on Spain in 1739. The war with Spain was a component of the war of the Austrian Succession. Britain, the Dutch Republic and Hanover at this time are fighting Spain and France and the war lasts into the 1740s. The fighting came to nothing (a stalemate) and peace once again broke out until the 1750s..
1742-Wadpole retires.
1744- William IV dies and is succeeded by his son William V. William V becomes stadholder of the provinces in the Dutch Republic over which William IV was stadholder due to William IV's will. One of these provinces begins to debate whether to appoint a new stadholder, but William V (by a narrow margin in a vote) manages to retain the title of stadholder. The other provinces (Holland among them) also have voices of dissent, but with France so nearby and with a war with France so recently over, they decide to keep William V (and British automatic support) and affirm him as stadholder in a vote. His experience as a stadholder during his princehood was the second reason he was retained as stadholder.
1747- Another French invasion of the Dutch Republic is threatened and it seems for sure the French mean business. Groningen and Gelderland appoint William V as stadholder. The remaining provinces where William is not stadholder follow suit and William V becomes the first stadholder of all 7 provinces. The office of stadholder is then made officially made hereditary in the male and female lines. After this declaration the French stop threatening to invade, mostly out of fear and weariness of yet another war with Britain and Hanover so shortly after the end of the 1739 one as opposed to just punishing the Dutch.
1750s- Britain and France go to war again over imperial claims and Hanover and the Dutch republic dutifully declare war on France. There is intense fighting in Europe and some fighting in North America and India. Britain and her allies win this war against France. Britain now has dominance in North America and India and it seems that the French "threat" in Europe has been greatly diminished for now.
1758- Prince John (acting stadholder following the tradition of his father) marries his cousin, Elizabeth Caroline, daughter of Frederick Louis (son of George II of Hanover). He geniunely loves her, however Elizabeth dies within a year, childless. John withdraws in sorrow and it is not until 1765 at the urging of his father that he marries again, this time to a British noblewoman. He has no love for her and when the two children he has by her die shortly after birth, he becomes more estranged from her and focuses a lot on the Dutch Republic.
1760- George II of Hanover dies and is succeeded by his grandson, George III.
1767- William V dies and Prince John becomes King John II. In the spirit of his father he keeps the alliance with Hanover...