Thande
Donor
So, Balkanise China.But is that even feasable?
I mean, they're next to China, for goodness sake...
Gurkani Alam
- Thread starter Magnificate
- Start date
Well I guess that reflects what I actually believe, which feeds into my ATLs. I couldn't immediately think of any examples of "religious intolerance FTW!" from OTL. Which counter-examples did you have in mind?
OK. Consider them to be adjusted...
So noted. I've changed them to Tunis and Tarabulus respectively...
More responses to come when I have the time...
Rockingham
Banned
Well Japan attempted to conquer China twice, and almost succeeded once(the only reason they didn't was US interference). That was largely due to Chinese fragmentation. So why cant Korea? In any case they don't need all of China, just Manchuria and maybe a bit more(Japan would be good as well). With that, they have a navally strong position, and its unlikely they wouldn't become a mercantile state (Korean Alaska/California anyone?But is that even feasable?
I mean, they're next to China, for goodness sake...
)
Thande
Donor
Britain reached the peak of imperial power whilst under a regime that disinfranchised Catholics.
Spain conquered half the world under a regime that hunted down and tortured its Muslim and Jewish population, doubtless losing valuable talent in the process.
America is currently the most avowedly Christian Western nation and continues to be both the only military and economic superpower, and the leader in all scientific disciplines - and believe me, I know what I'm talking about on that one (my head of department: 'good idea, Nearly-Dr Thande, but the University of Utah did that last year'
)My point is not that religious intolerance is a good thing - obviously that's not true - but I am saying that religious tolerance is not some sort of magic pink pill that gives your country an automatic advantage, as you seem to think.
BTW, I really like 'Tarabalus'.
Thande
Donor
Well Japan attempted to conquer China twice, and almost succeeded once(the only reason they didn't was US interference). That was largely due to Chinese fragmentation. So why cant Korea? In any case they don't need all of China, just Manchuria and maybe a bit more(Japan would be good as well). With that, they have a navally strong position, and its unlikely they wouldn't become a mercantile state (Korean Alaska/California anyone?
Actually three times if you count the Imjin War...
Come to think of it, the Imjin War is a good place to start a turbo-Korean TL. If China then gets shattered by invasions rather than just taken over by the Manchus, leaving Joseon-Korea as a coherent state with a powerful army and navy from the war (and Japan isolationist)...
HERESY!
Besides, as others will remind you, the geography of China will force a (re-)unification eventually...
All that flat land in the north, and all.
But Japan doesn't have a land border with China, though... (less chance of being overun by vast hordes of Chinese soliders...)
In any case, they don't need all of China, just Manchuria and maybe a bit more (Japan would be good as well). With that, they have a navally strong position, and its unlikely they wouldn't become a mercantile state (Korean Alaska/California anyone?
But that would hardly be a TURBO-KOREA!!!!!!!
(TM), though, would it?... Come to thing of it, how could Korea conquer Japan of all places, anyway?
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1) Besides, as others will remind you, the geography of China will force a (re-)unification eventually...
All that flat land in the north, and all.
2) But Japan doesn't have a land border with China, though... (less chance of being overun by vast hordes of Chinese soliders...)
3) But that would hardly be a TURBO-KOREA!!!!!!!
Come to thing of it, how could Korea conquer Japan of all places, anyway?
1) "Long united empire must divide, long divided must unite."
2) Meh, I don't even believe Hideyoshi could conquer China even though if his expedition was (plausibly, without ASB) a ton more successful than IOTL....
3) You know what, I think if you want to get a TURBO-KOREA!!!!!!
p), conquering Japan is absolutely necessary. Just look at the map and I think you'll understand what I mean here. That is, if you don't want to be bothered to get Korea absorb ALL of China...... 3) You know what, I think if you want to get a TURBO-KOREA!!!!!!
Conquering Japan was for a plausablity review...
Of course having a Korean Japan is a must for TURBO-KOREA!!!!!!
Conquering Japan was for a plausablity review...
Of course having a Korean Japan is a must for TURBO-KOREA!!!!!!
You know what ? As long as Tony doesn't pull the usual "Genocide against tEh p00r JaPon3s3 (or some other poor people, insert their name here)" there, I'll be very happy....
Really, I think it's one of the most bothering weakness of Tony's TLs....
You know what ? As long as Tony doesn't pull the usual "Genocide against tEh p00r JaPon3s3 (or some other poor people, insert their name here)" there, I'll be very happy....
Really, I think it's one of the most bothering weakness of Tony's TLs....
Though he does have UBER-JAPAN!!! in Superpunk...
And an independent (formally Chinese) Japan in Tellus.
Though he does have UBER-JAPAN!!! in Superpunk...
And an independent (formally Chinese) Japan in Tellus.
I know, but he butchered almost all of the Koreans in Cliveless World and the Japanese in the Monarchy World. I think such Genocides in both TLs just baseless, don't really reasonable to be done. The Chinese in both TLs just go "kill all the Japanese(monarchy)/Koreans(Cliveless) because it's fun" without stating why it was really necessary (don't have to be a logical reason though....) for the Chinese to do it....
That is a good point...
One of the few bad parts of the Tony Jones TLs...
Another one is that there is only one with Uber-Britishness!
Rockingham
Banned
-In the case of Britain- that wasn't much worse then the other powers of the time, in fact, the fact that their are still Catholics in Ireland proves they were better then say France, Spain, Portugal.... the HRE was supposedly meant to tolerate any religion, or at least its constituent states were, but that was because of military defeat. Also, it was kind of outweighed by the huge economic and industrial advantage it enjoyed ,as well as Democracy.Britain reached the peak of imperial power whilst under a regime that disinfranchised Catholics.
Spain conquered half the world under a regime that hunted down and tortured its Muslim and Jewish population, doubtless losing valuable talent in the process.
America is currently the most avowedly Christian Western nation and continues to be both the only military and economic superpower, and the leader in all scientific disciplines - and believe me, I know what I'm talking about on that one (my head of department: 'good idea, Nearly-Dr Thande, but the University of Utah did that last year'
My point is not that religious intolerance is a good thing - obviously that's not true - but I am saying that religious tolerance is not some sort of magic pink pill that gives your country an automatic advantage, as you seem to think.
-In regards to Spain, you hit the mark- it lost valuable talent, and later applied the same process to Protestants-a major cause in its decline. One has to wonder if the decline might have been lessened if they had taken advantage of all thes minorities. Notice that Spain has managed to lose its status as a great power, as its Hapsburg leaders managed to squander their power on fundamentalism.
-It may be true that they are the most avowedly Christian now , but the foundations for their power were laid when they were comparitively liberal. In any case, I would argue that while large elements of the USA, perhaps a majority, are avowedly Christian, hard core Capitalism is also strongest there. I would dispute their lead in all sciences- especially if you are to measure their scientific productivity relative to the size of their population.
I was counting the Imjin war- I meant 2 times it has been their aim to conquer the entirety of China, rather then a part of it.
-Yes, it will force a re-unification, but not neccesarily by a Chinese state. The Mongols managed it once, and tried it a second time, so why couldn't Korea try it? Sure, the geography is less favourable, but its not impossible.HERESY!
Besides, as others will remind you, the geography of China will force a (re-)unification eventually...
All that flat land in the north, and all.
But Japan doesn't have a land border with China, though... (less chance of being overun by vast hordes of Chinese soliders...)
But that would hardly be a TURBO-KOREA!!!!!!!
Come to thing of it, how could Korea conquer Japan of all places, anyway?
-Well, if it happens in the Imjin war, Japan has just suffered a major military and naval defeat. Unlikely, but we are talking about a TURBO-KOREA!!!
aren't we? Oh, and notice I suggeste a Korean mercantile power so basically parts of western (otl) USA's coast, some Indoneasian Islands, Taiwan etc. if you want a real wank.
That is a good point...
One of the few bad parts of the Tony Jones TLs...
Another one is that there is only one with Uber-Britishness!
And that one also, just have to sacrifice Ottoman Empire for that....
!?!?!Seriously, I seriously doubt there was no chance for Ottoman Empire for at least maintain her grace in the Monarchy World. At least they can survive as a nation that's on par with Brazil in Monarchy World TL, or even on par with NEU ! They would make a perfect buffer between the British and the Russian's realms....
And that one also, just have to sacrifice Ottoman Empire for that....
Seriously, I seriously doubt there was no chance for Ottoman Empire for at least maintain her grace in the Monarchy World. At least they can survive as a nation that's on par with Brazil in Monarchy World TL, or even on par with NEU ! They would make a perfect buffer between the British and the Russian's realms....
More Ottomans!
Hear that, Tony?
We want more Ottomans in your next TL!
(And uber-Britishness, if that's not too much to ask?...
)- But did Koreans have the real power (whatever it was) to overrun all of China as the Mongols or the Manchus ? I can forsee the Koreans reaching Beijing than conquer all of Northeast China. But for all of China, I won't be surprise if they would need to take some decades or even a century at worst, to work for it....
- About the certain Korean colonies, here are the first to come to the mind :
- Taiwan
- Japan
- Philippines
- some Eastern Indonesian islands (Maluku and Papua, to a lesser extent maybe also Northern part of Sulawesi and Sabah)
- Some Pacific Islands (Hawaii and Micronesia is the first to come to the mind...)
- And maybe also some Chinese coastal cities...
Aozhouhuaren
Banned
Excellent Timeline, Tony, a very intriguing read. I loved the descriptive writing and the imagery of the evolution in society, politics, religion and technology. I haven't yet finished it, only skimming through, but from what I've seen, it is genuine quality.
My knowledge in all fields of history are vague at best, so I can't really offer any criticisms or detailed acknowledgements, of which there seem to be quite a few from looking at this thread. But if I'm to take the timeline as a work in progress due to the constructive criticism and your acceptance of such criticisms, this timeline will be much greater than it already is in the near future.
Continue the marvellous work and may we see more works like it!
My knowledge in all fields of history are vague at best, so I can't really offer any criticisms or detailed acknowledgements, of which there seem to be quite a few from looking at this thread. But if I'm to take the timeline as a work in progress due to the constructive criticism and your acceptance of such criticisms, this timeline will be much greater than it already is in the near future.
Continue the marvellous work and may we see more works like it!
More Ottomans!
Hear that, Tony?
We want more Ottomans in your next TL!
(And uber-Britishness, if that's not too much to ask?...
Very very agree
!Uber-Britishness ? Why not... uber Britonicness ?
Very very agree
Now, about that Byzanto-Ottoman Empire...
(Yet another crazy personal-union, brought to you by me...
)Uber-Britishness ? Why not... uber Britonicness ?
And why not?
But we allready have an Uber-Britonicness TL on the board, though.
It is, however, still in progress (so get back to writing it, robertp6165!
).I admit to a Korean genocide in Cliveless world. The Long Chinese government are not nice people, and basically wanted the land for their own use. I deny it in Monarchy World though. Yes, Japan was crushed, but that was because of their continuous uprisings against the Chinese invaders, not a deliberate policy of extermination. So not the same thing at all, at least in my view.
As for why both things were there, it is basically because in my view ATLs should be no more immune to events of extreme nastiness than OTL. People are people after all. Don't think I put them in lightly, because I don't.
Come on, Cliveless world has plenty of Ottoman-ly goodness!
Continue the marvellous work and may we see more works like it!
Thanks! I shall do my best (as the time allows of course!)...