Replying to lots of people at once...
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I loved the timeline and thought it was above and beyond (besides Thandes) one of the best fleshed out timelines i have ever seen. However, one thing that struck me as odd was the rapid pace of technological progression. I'm not saying it couldnt happen, its just that some devices (computers, missiles and a few others) happened well before when they happened in OTL with out a lot of explanation as to why thus making me scratch my head and say huh? a lot. I'm no expert on technology and the history of technology but yeah...
Well the overall idea is that the meeting of European and Indian ideas triggered advancement more quickly as there were more minds focussed on science at a given point than in OTL, so things were discovered more quickly. In particular an Indian scientist discovering the link between electricity and magnetism
much earlier than in OTL allowed things to advance more quickly.
Oh and whats with the comets? I was kinda confused that comets featured a lot in this timeline without effecting the world overall. Just some things i twigged on, but it was a fun read.
The comets are just there as events. They happened in OTL at those times too. Likewise the earthquakes, volcanoes etc., though obviously these can have more of an effect on the ground…
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I like the way one gets a snapshot of the world in the 'now' (or 2000).
Thanks! It's mainly because these ATLs have grown out of me writing settings for RPGs, so it's important to me to give the reader an idea of what the world 'feels' like.
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Nice. Although I don't quite believe in Holy Russia or the 50-year war myself: Russia is even more isolated and far more anti-intellectual [1] than OTL USSR, yet it manages to keep up with modern tech development to the point where it takes 50 years for the Mughals to develop an absolute military advantage over them - starting with technology quite a bit ahead of OTL 1940's.
Well I'm sorry you don’t quite believe it, but that's the TL and that's the way it going to stay!
I'm sure there are plenty of bits of OTL history an outside observer might view in the same light…
Also, with a _billion people_, yes you _can_ occupy a country the size of the USSR: [2] holding it, OTOH, if they're a bunch of religious fantatics, may be more of a problem...but you can of course level it to the ground.
Well, I think the timeline explains the reasoning behind why that did not happen reasonably well, and in particular that it was much more than the Mughals were aiming to do.
(And if Japan is an uberpower in too many TLs, in your TLs it seems to get conquered a bit too often!
Shrug! I think Japan becoming the power it is in OTL is a low-probability event, and it's having a much harder time as it does in my TLs is considerably more likely.
China transfers Manchuria - the Manchu homeland - to Russian control, so they can get the rail-linked warmwater ports for the massive invasion?
Yes, you'd almost think the Chinese had no choice in the matter!
How con
veenient. Isn't it convenient how Japan only gets 9 years between first bit of gunpowder diplomacy and full massive invasion, so they don't have enough time to rebuild their army? (OTL, they did this PDQ after Perry). Isn't it convenient how the Dutch leave and there is no other power trading with Japan they can appeal to for help? (Why no trade with the Indian states, which don't have the stigma of being Christians? But perhaps I missed this.) 'Fess up - you just didn't want to deal with the added complication of a strong or semi-strong Japan in your already elaborate TL!
)
Well there may be a bit of that, I admit! But on the other hand without the Dutch I can see Japan just sitting their in isolated splendour rebuffing the outside world until it comes knocking in a way that can't be ignored. As for things being 'convenient', well, sometimes that's how history goes. Sometimes events [i[do[/i] just fall in a way that is convenient for one side or the other...
(Overall, it's pretty magnificent, though).
Is this what's called damning with faint praise?!
[1] Yes, I can appreciate the parallels between the "monasteries of learning" and the somewhat privileged positions of scientists in OTL's USSR, but the USSR was always consciously pro-technology and pro-science, even if hampered by internal control and censorship.
Well, the Holy Russian Empire has had no choice but to become consciously pro-technology and pro-science within the government at least, to allow Russia to survive. Its government does want to 'protect' its people but keeps its intellectualism isolated from the people as a whole.
I think it's workable, if perhaps a bit of push.
[2] If Hitler had had 400 million Germans in 1941...
Well yes, but by the time the Long War got winnable the thought of a long occupation was not an attractive one to the Dharmic governments, so I see them as just wanting the war to
end, even if not as favourably to them as might be ideal...
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Excellent Timeline, Tony, a very intriguing read. I loved the descriptive writing and the imagery of the evolution in society, politics, religion and technology. I haven't yet finished it, only skimming through, but from what I've seen, it is genuine quality.
Thanks!
My knowledge in all fields of history are vague at best, so I can't really offer any criticisms or detailed acknowledgements, of which there seem to be quite a few from looking at this thread. But if I'm to take the timeline as a work in progress due to the constructive criticism and your acceptance of such criticisms, this timeline will be much greater than it already is in the near future.
My lack of knowledge is why there are so many links to references throughout the TL! It's not a work in progress from my PoV; more of a finished product with a few rough edges left, which people here are helping me to smooth away…
Continue the marvellous work and may we see more works like it!
Thanks! I shall do my best…
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1. Mughal World is an impressive timeline. Contrary to most other timelines it involves not only alternate political history, but also alternate cultural, sociological and scientific developments. Over 70 pages of font size 7 text in three columns. Over twice as long as Clive-less Worlld.
Don’t I know it!
2. It’s a bit hard to fallow. Why? Mostly because I know next to nothing about non-colonial history of Indian subcontinent nor Oceania. [Explanations in these brackets certainly were helpful.]
That's why they're there!
2. Europe not achieving world dominance in a timeline with post-1600 POD without doing a Mughal-wank. (Thought it certainly IS a sort of best case scenario for Indian subcontinent.)
Well, that is true, but I realise as much and say so in the notes too. But hopefully it's not an
implausible best-case scenario.
Other comments:
1. As is the case with your other timelines, butterfly effect is limited in cases of child births. This is especially evident with royal families, for example August II the Strong Being was born in 1670, that is nearly 30 years after the POD. IMHO it would be both easier and more “elegant” to deal with analogues.
Well, the names might be the same but a genetic analysis might show they are somewhat different people. On the other hand you could make a case that royal families have a much smaller breeding pool than common people, so there
might be a greater chance of getting similar people being born even some time after the PoD than would be the case among commoners...
2. Long War. Is it really possible to sustain a 50 years war fought with modern technology? I know Long War never degenerated into all-out total war or nuclear exchange, but still I find it strange. I think the main question is, just how much were civilians affected? Were cities bombed/razed? How about civilian infrastructure?
In Europe and Russia civilians were affected a great deal as the war was fought over their territory. In India and south-east Asia rather less as the fighting was away from those regions. On the other hand even in India etc. people were affected by rationing, shortages, people going off to war and not coming back and so on.
3. Power blocks defined by religious tolerance? I just don’t think this issue is significant enough. Don’t get me wrong, it is important but it cannot compare to mayor ideological-economical differences (think OTL: Communism vs. Democracy/Capitalism), nationalisms (think Monarchy World: England vs. Russia vs. China), attitude to social/technological changes (think Clive-less World: Traditionalism vs. Progressivism) or particular religions (think Puritan World: Puritans vs. Octuple Alliance) Or maybe you intended power blocks to remain more vague / less clearly defined ITTL?
Perhaps an element of that, but I don't think religious tolerance/intolerance is
that implausible a dividing line to use. I think it could be a
very significant issue, especially if divisions over it build up and fester over a very long time as they do in this world.
And anyway it's far too integral a part of the TL to change at this late stage so I'm afraid you'll have to live with it!
4. Rate of technological development. Timelines with accelerated tech rate are scarce and I like your newer timelines for breaking this trend. However, ITTL inventions and discoveries seem seems to appear just a tad too fast. Especially electrical-based science being century ahead of OTL.
Well, I think the rate of advance is not an unreasonable one for the world for the reasons I mention to Epimethius, above. As for electricity, if the link between electricity and magnetism is discovered 100 years earlier than in OTL what happens in the ATL, or something similar, would happen, I think!
I think there are problems with trying to make an ATL with technology too far in advance of OTL, because things change so fast as to become unpredictable. For example, if a technological singularity is possible (as I believe it is) then an ATL with even 30 years faster technological development could be at or past it by now. And how do you account for that? Hard! I admit part of the reason for the Long War is to inhibit technological development in this ATL to avoid this problem...
5. England-Denmark. Sorry, but for me it seems random and lacks coolness-factor.
Sorry you don’t like it, but I do, so it stays.
6. Sarajevo Pact. You have a thing for central European alliances don’t you?
(HRE in Puritan World, Austro-Hungarian empire and it’s associated states in Monarchy World, HRE in Clive-less World, Sarajevo Pact ITTL.)
I guess I do!
7. Lithuania? I either missed it or you haven’t mentioned this country ITTL. What happened to them?
Good question! Given the map I think Lithuania was absorbed by Russian in the Second Reclamation War. There is doubtless a lot of Lithuanian influence in Poland though given their links before this time. I shall update the TL about this when I've had a chance to think about it.
8. Title. It does not register on Google. (Google only finds this thread.) Maybe you should rename it to simply Mughal World or Shah World or even Aurangzeb-less World?
This is probably because of the caret on the A of Alam, so it's really Gurkani Âlam.
Ideas, suggestions and requests:
1. In popular culture ninjas were replaced with thuggess. How about vampires and werewolves being replaced with Efreet (Indian origin, intelligent, charming, but violent spirit embodying fire) and Utopiec (Slavic origin, meaning “drowned-man”, plural Utopce, sort of mindless, indestructible, zombie-like creature)?
A interesting point. I may do this too.
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1) A good name, unfortunately I think it still doesn't fit for this Federation
. Based on your source, the islands which consists the Sunda isles are :
-Sumatra (Samudra)
-Java
-Kalimantan
-Bali
-West Nusa Tenggara (Lombok and Sumba)
-East Nusa Tenggara (Sumbawa, Flores, and Timor)
-and Barat Daya Islands, just north of Timor and Flores.
ITTL Samudra is already its own country, where else East Nusa Tenggara and Barat Daya Isles are what is now ITTL the Gurkani's Subah of Sawu. OTOH Makassar, Buton and Moluccas, which ARE NOT the parts of Sunda Islands, are the parts of this Federation.
This is all true, but I think the name works anyway. If nothing else it could originally have covered the
ambitions of the founders of the Federation.
And after all not all of Europe is in the European Community, nor all of America in the USA so I think names that do not cover all of the territory their names might imply and which also extend beyond that territory too are entirely do-able. Politics allows many things that do not make logical geographic sense...
More importantly, we don't even know whether the term "Sunda Islands" has been ever used before the day of Indonesian independence......
Well according to Wikipedia there was a
Kingdom of Sunda in the 6th century, and there are the Sundanese people with their Sundanese language so that sounds to me like the name has historical validity…
I wonder whether "Banten/Bantam Pact" or "Banten Union" would more suitable as the name of the federation, while we know that the one there in Europe isn't named as "Brussel Pact" or "Brussel Union"....
I think the name as it stands will do!
BTW, I've been wondering about the members of this federation. I suppose these are the members of the federations :
- Mataram Sultanate(Caliphate?)
- Banten Sultanate
- Sultanate of Kutai
- Makassar
- Buton
- Maluku Alliance ( or Uli Lima and Uli Siwa ?)
- Banjar Sultanate
- Balinese (the state(s) of (in) Bali [and Banyuwangi?])*
- Sasak*
- Sultanate of Surabaya*
- Madura*
- Other East Javanese state(s)*
- State(s) in the Western part of Southern Kalimantan*
*(if these states are not under Mataram annexation)
How is it ?
If it is needed, I will be more than willing to help you on this matter.
That all sounds quite reasonable. I shall have a think about it. And thanks for the offer of help!
