No Terror of Justinian - Glory Instead! (The Roman Emperor Who Lost His Nose - A TL of Justinian II)

Yay, update.
Glad of the wiki too - sure beats scanning backwards ;)

Might be me but seemed quite a few catchphrases e.g. "sea is a harshmistress" etc.
Otherwise good as ever :)
 

Sargon

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Yay, update.
Glad of the wiki too - sure beats scanning backwards ;)

Might be me but seemed quite a few catchphrases e.g. "sea is a harshmistress" etc.
Otherwise good as ever :)

Gald you are liking it and thanks for the comment Prof! :)

More will be added to the Wiki in due course, and if anyone wishes to do so, that will be a big help.

Actually, I intended to change some of those phrases in my final edit as I just write out a rough draft first of all using my notes, then fill out the other bits with more detail once I'm happy that I have got the structure and events that I wish to cover in that part done. However, I didn't want to spend much more time going through things as I was tired and it was getting late. So I just did the spelling and grammar check and added a few more bits instead after previously fleshing things out to my satisfaction, and didn't get around to those bits in the end.




Sargon
 
I am glad to see that this is back.

At first, it looked as if the Romans would have an easy victory, but the weather and the determination of Musa, led to a stalemate.

Hopefully the Romans did enough damage to the Caliphate ships to force them back.

Nikephoros

I don't think the Caliphate ships were forced back. They reached Iberia from my reading of it, or at least those that didn't go to the bottom. It just rather sounds that most of the ships went down and quite possibly those that didn't will be scattered and and demoralised. Going to be interesting to see what happens when the news reaches the two armies. [Especially given initial accounts could be fairly inaccurate]. Could see a fair number of the rebel Visigoths reconsidering their future if Muslim losses have been as heavy as it sounds. Roman losses were also significant by the sound of it, possibly half their forces. However at least that was the battlefleet, with another carrying troops on the way. A lot of the swords of the prophet have gone to a waterly grave by the sound of it.

Steve
 
Sargon

Great to see this back and a good update.:D Sounds like a costly but big victory for the Roman fleet. A lot depends on how much of the Muslim fleet and army went down but they could find out that their hold on Septum is very shorted lived. Also sounds like Justinian is planning to follow up fairly quickly against Carthage.

Presume the relative pacifist Caliphate is an historically accurate one? Sounds like he's going to have a hell of a problem on his hands.

Steve
 
Good to see this back, one of my favourite TLs. Nice balance between character stuff and events as always, with the narrative moving along at a good pace but nicely fleshed out bits of characterisation. I liked the brief sketch of the Caliph.

It looks about to go all pear-shaped in Iberia, very finely balanced at the moment......
 
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Glorious update.

So we have a disaster for the Caliphate.

Reasoning:

1. They are entering a broadfront war with the Empire they had nt been planning for.

2. Musa's invbasion force has at least been reduced significantly and at worse may have been reduced to 50%.

3. Roman presence has turned a campaign meanto be an intervention in a civil war to a slugfest. Combined with 2 this is very bad since it will greatky affect the morale.

4. Since Septum has been emptied and the populace is hostile Micholas is quite likely to obtain victory. This will make it more comoplicated for the Caliphate to support their forces in Iberia, not to mentio be a maor blow to Muslim moral across the straits.

5. If the Caliph is any indication the Caliphate is prepared to fight the Romans of preJustinian, and are in for a shock when they try and attack Anatolia.

6. Justinian is a badass who could easily be claimed to be invested with Divine Right considering his triumphant ressurection. Great leaders inspire greatness in their followers.

Also "Wrath of Heracles" nice. Reminds me on a board where my hoped for name of a seventh Sar Wars movie would be the Wrath of Thrawn, the Trekkies would be mad.
 
The one part that caught my eye was the
"to arrange for reinforcements from Carthage, Tripoli and Alexandria at once"

Strange but I remember those being important areas in this epoch...
 

Sargon

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Sargon

Great to see this back and a good update.:D Sounds like a costly but big victory for the Roman fleet. A lot depends on how much of the Muslim fleet and army went down but they could find out that their hold on Septum is very shorted lived. Also sounds like Justinian is planning to follow up fairly quickly against Carthage.

Presume the relative pacifist Caliphate is an historically accurate one? Sounds like he's going to have a hell of a problem on his hands.

Steve

Cheers for the comment Steve. :)

Costly for both sides. I guess you could call it an Arab tactical victory, but possibly a Roman strategic one at the same time. We wouldn't want things to be too easy for them would we? Battle plans have a habit of not going quite the way people plan after all. :p

Justinian will be heading off to North Africa, stopping off at Crete and Sicily on the way. Don't forget Alexander has orders to take Septum and his fleet will be hoping to turn up and meet with Nicholas. That still leaves considerable forces in Sicily though.

I've made efforts to make the depiction of the Caliph pretty accurate. He was indeed a very cultured man who spent a lot of time and effort improving the social and cultural aspects of his Empire. He was also the Caliph to preside over the period when the Caliphate was at its height in territorial terms.

I wouldn't necessarily label him pacifistic seeing as he was responsible for reforming the army and navy during his reign, making them more effective, but you are right that where the Roman Empire is concerned, he'd rather avoid war. After all, he knows their power, and he knows what Justinian can be like, an Emperor who by and large has a pretty successful record in battles so far - only losing against the Arabs in the past because 30,000 Slavs defected to them at a critical moment in battle and Leontius hadn't obeyed his orders. Al-Walid is quite happy to pursue aggressive policies elsewhere. For example, he thought Spain would be doable without too many problems attached since he didn't think the Romans would be there. In OTL the Arabs never expected resistance to collapse as fast as it did when Roderic was annihilated in the first big battle there, but the Caliph certainly had the intent of getting Spain if possible and doubtless would have allocated more resources to secure the place if necessary had Roderic not lost that battle. He had peace with the Romans, so it was a golden opportunity to do it whilst he didn't have to worry too much about them.

You are quite right that he's going to have a lot of his hands. In OTL he didn't have to deal with Justinian. :D

Good to see this back, one of my favourite TLs. Nice balance between character stuff and events as always, with the narrative moving along at a good pace but nicely fleshed out bits of characterisation. I liked the brief sketch of the Caliph.

It looks about to go all pear-shaped in Iberia, very finely balanced at the moment......

Appreciate the comment very much old chap! :)

I'm glad you are enjoying the characterisation and whatnot. I've been trying to add more to this story as it develops, and if people are liking that aspect, then that aim is coming along nicely!

Actually, I wanted to introduce the Caliph as a character and observe things from his point of view since we'll be seeing more of him later. The more I read about him, the more he fascinates me - he's certainly someone, just like Justinian, I would have liked to have met and find out what they were really like. I have a feeling conversations with either of them would've been fascinating.

Things in Iberia are going to become complicated...the show's not over yet. ;)


Sargon
 
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Sargon

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Glorious update.

So we have a disaster for the Caliphate.

Reasoning:

1. They are entering a broadfront war with the Empire they had nt been planning for.

Pretty much. You could even say given that the Caliphate was at its greatest territorial extent at this time, there could even be a danger of resources being spread too thinly. Remember that they have recently conquered areas of Central Asia, and resources are needed there too. However, the Caliphate is also fabulously rich at this point in time.

Herr Frage said:
2. Musa's invbasion force has at least been reduced significantly and at worse may have been reduced to 50%.

Significant losses, yes. You'll have to wait to see how much though. ;)

Herr Frage said:
3. Roman presence has turned a campaign meanto be an intervention in a civil war to a slugfest. Combined with 2 this is very bad since it will greatky affect the morale.

Certainly a factor. Morale is usually the first to suffer in such situations.

Herr Frage said:
4. Since Septum has been emptied and the populace is hostile Micholas is quite likely to obtain victory. This will make it more comoplicated for the Caliphate to support their forces in Iberia, not to mentio be a maor blow to Muslim moral across the straits.

Septum still has an Arab and Visgothic (loyal to Julian) garrison, but yes, there are a lot of people who can make life difficult for them - especially when a fleet intent on liberating the place shows up. The Caliph knows this, which is why he has directed reinforcements there. Losing it would be a big setback as it is a very useful base.

Herr Frage said:
5. If the Caliph is any indication the Caliphate is prepared to fight the Romans of preJustinian, and are in for a shock when they try and attack Anatolia.

Should the Caliph attack there, the situation in Anatolia would become...interesting, I agree. ;)

Herr Frage said:
6. Justinian is a badass who could easily be claimed to be invested with Divine Right considering his triumphant ressurection. Great leaders inspire greatness in their followers.

Certainly a very big factor, and certainly something Justinian believes in as he believes God has given him this chance. His people cannot deny that he has achieved what no other Emperor has managed to do by coming back from mutilation to take recover his throne. A lot of his populace will certainly see that as divinely inspired. Others may not however...

Herr Frage said:
Also "Wrath of Heracles" nice. Reminds me on a board where my hoped for name of a seventh Sar Wars movie would be the Wrath of Thrawn, the Trekkies would be mad.

Heh, that's quite amusing. Pity it hasn't been made. I like Thrawn.

Thanks for the comments and analysis by the way. Very welcome, and glad you are enjoying this too! :cool:

The one part that caught my eye was the
"to arrange for reinforcements from Carthage, Tripoli and Alexandria at once"

Strange but I remember those being important areas in this epoch...

You are right that they are important areas, and thus are very well garrisoned, so they can afford to spare troops to bolster the defences at Septum, and even provide some reinforcements for Spain if necessary without too much detriment to themselves. Thanks for the comment too, I always appreciate them! :)


Sargon
 
With the events going on in Spain, could this race to the rule of Iberia, not be a reverse on the Caliph? A drain of resourses, while the Romans move more freely? A reversal of OTL, where it was the Romans who got pecked away because they're attention was elsewheres?

I'm not good at TLs, the art of history is something I prefer to read, and research. So if I pipe up, I'm just somebody, asking a good author, a question.
 
How far is this TL going to go?

Will it cover more than the life and times of Basileus Justinian II? Because I for one would love to see the butterflies from these events play out.
 

Sargon

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With the events going on in Spain, could this race to the rule of Iberia, not be a reverse on the Caliph? A drain of resourses, while the Romans move more freely? A reversal of OTL, where it was the Romans who got pecked away because they're attention was elsewheres?

I'm not good at TLs, the art of history is something I prefer to read, and research. So if I pipe up, I'm just somebody, asking a good author, a question.

If the Caliphate is not careful, it could be problematic, and it is possible they could stretch themselves too thinly. It is different from OTL in that now the Romans are taking the initiative, whereas OTL, Justinian was too busy punishing his domestic enemies to the exclusion of almost everything else and following his reign there were a trio of ineffective Emperors until Leo came along.

Feel free to pipe up any time: questions are always welcome! :)

Great update, Sargon!:)
And with a cliffhanger on the fate of the Iberic Peninsula.;)

Great that you are enjoying too and thanks for the comment! :)

How far is this TL going to go?

Will it cover more than the life and times of Basileus Justinian II? Because I for one would love to see the butterflies from these events play out.

I plan to take this TL as far as I can, so it will go beyond his reign. However, given the pace I write it, and now that the format has gone from several years in one chapter to part of a year each time, it could be some time before we get that far down the road. Nevertheless, I am intending to take this a long time into the future because as you say, there are so many interesting possibilities stemming from this.


Sargon
 
If the Caliphate is not careful, it could be problematic, and it is possible they could stretch themselves too thinly. It is different from OTL in that now the Romans are taking the initiative, whereas OTL, Justinian was too busy punishing his domestic enemies to the exclusion of almost everything else and following his reign there were a trio of ineffective Emperors until Leo came along.

That could make for a big difference as it goes a long way to balance out the larger resources of the Caliphate, coupled as said earlier with its other commitments elsewhere. Also with a more reflective Caliph the Muslim armies might be somewhat less focused than earlier, with doubts about its leadership possibly. If he seems less than committed to total victory then you might see people starting to think a change of leadership is required. [Although this is likely to only be a danger after a defeat, rather than during a war].


I plan to take this TL as far as I can, so it will go beyond his reign. However, given the pace I write it, and now that the format has gone from several years in one chapter to part of a year each time, it could be some time before we get that far down the road. Nevertheless, I am intending to take this a long time into the future because as you say, there are so many interesting possibilities stemming from this.


Sargon

Great news. As you say there are so many potential developments from a more stable, powerful and successful Byzantium. Sounds an excellent idea. [Just one small potential problem. As you say it could take some time and I'm no longer quite in the 1st bloom of youth. Do you know where I can get some eternal youth serum.:D]

Steve
 

Sargon

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That could make for a big difference as it goes a long way to balance out the larger resources of the Caliphate, coupled as said earlier with its other commitments elsewhere. Also with a more reflective Caliph the Muslim armies might be somewhat less focused than earlier, with doubts about its leadership possibly. If he seems less than committed to total victory then you might see people starting to think a change of leadership is required. [Although this is likely to only be a danger after a defeat, rather than during a war].

Thanks for another interesting reply. I always like your bits of analysis, and they are most welcome. :)

Those are all factors that could come into play here. Any hesitation on the part of the Caliph could cost him, since here he's facing a fully focused Justinian who is certainly not going to mess around, and is far more dangerous than the enemies (and the Justinian) he faced OTL. Added to that, Justinian has not purged his best officers here as he did OTL because he was paranoid about them, instead making the best use of the talent the Empire has, and even actively looking for more opportunities such as listening to good ideas (winter campaigning) and making better use of his allies (the Khazar contingent he welcomed into the Empire).

During his whole reign in OTL, Al-Walid never really faced a determined threat from the Romans. Sure, he faced stiff opposition in his battles elsewhere in the Empire, but he had Spain virtually fall into his hands and could afford to concentrate his efforts elsewhere, such as in Central Asia. Now, he was a very good ruler, and he was prepared to fight very hard when necessary, but does he have what it takes to face a Roman Empire lead by someone who is tooth and nail determined to put right Leontius' mistakes as well as some of his own AND be thorough about preparing for it all? That's what makes this story so fascinating. :cool:

stevep said:
Great news. As you say there are so many potential developments from a more stable, powerful and successful Byzantium. Sounds an excellent idea. [Just one small potential problem. As you say it could take some time and I'm no longer quite in the 1st bloom of youth. Do you know where I can get some eternal youth serum.:D]

Steve

Yep, this is too good a period to ignore, and in addition it is so rarely done in AH. As far as I know, this is the first (and only) TL done about Justinian II.

I have to apologise for not being a consistent writer in terms of getting stuff out regularly. I openly admit that I'm no Chris or Thande. I do like most authors suffer from periods of writer's block or have real life things get in the way, but one thing you all can be sure of is that even if some time goes by, this TL will NOT be abandoned by me.

And of course, a good way to encourage me is to post comments. ;) :D

Now, as for the eternal youth serum, I hear Doctor What has some Snake Oil that may be of interest. ;)


Sargon
 

Grey Wolf

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That was an excellent naval battle, very well written and realistic and I very much enjoyed it

Sorry this took me forever to comment on; I read it at least a week ago !

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

Sargon

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That was an excellent naval battle, very well written and realistic and I very much enjoyed it

Sorry this took me forever to comment on; I read it at least a week ago !

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Glad you liked the description of the sea battle. I was hoping it would come across as effective and exciting.

Thanks for the comment old chap. I'm sometimes a little slow in reading and relying to things too. ;)


Sargon
 

Sargon

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Bump!!!!!

This is too well thought out to die with a whimper...

Thanks for the support old chap. :)

The TL is not dead, but I very nearly was after serious events in my life, which is why I have been absent from the boards for a long while.


Sargon
 
Sorry to hear things have gone sour for you. Online matters definitely belong on the bottom rung of priorities.

Hope you are on the mend.
 
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