No Terror of Justinian - Glory Instead! (The Roman Emperor Who Lost His Nose - A TL of Justinian II)

Sargon

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Bizarre, I was under the impression that only Muhammad's face is not allowed to be depicted and all... I guess I'll have to do more research on Islam, but still, I do not know whether printing the face of Jesus on coins would be a sufficient motive for the Arabs (or the Byzantines for that matter) to stop trading with each other. Remember that trade is not done by the Caliph's or the Emperor's courtiers, but by merchants, who are most likely driven by profit first, and beliefs second. Of course as long as the profit does apply.

Concerning both economies being hurt, I think it is a logical conclusion of what happens when two powers stop trading with each other. Now, depending on the relationship, one will be hurt more than the other; one of the two might even be hurt in such a miniscule way, that there will be no overall difference. I guess that, in the end, to see whether either side benefits from not trading with the other at all, we must find an estimate of the volume of trade between the two powers in this historical era.

Trade did indeed continue. As for the merchants on both sides, many were prepared to turn a blind eye, but as with a lot of things that exist at an official level, it did affect things higher up the chain. It did have detrimental effects to both sides, but for Justinian, the benefits outweighed the negative bits, and he was well satisfied with the problems and hand wringing it caused in Damascus whilst it lasted.

Exports for the empire were not affected too much since it was the Arabs who were paying with old Roman coinage and their own. That didn't bother the Romans too much. Imports on the other hand were more affected since as the Romans used more of the new coinage, it rubbed up some in the Caliphate the wrong way. Actually you'd get the bizarre phenomenon of Roman traders preferring to use older coins and Arab ones too. Better for business after all. Still, profit wins out in the end, and once the furore had died down, as it always does, merchants of course just get on with it. But certainly, when it was first introduced, it didn't help diplomatic relations much for a while.

Interestingly, Caliphate coins, since they were closely modelled on Byzantine coins were used a lot in trade too, and you'd find them quite easily throughout the Roman Empire.


Sargon
 

Sargon

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Sargon

Great timing. Just making a last check before turning in.

Good story although feinting a flight with relatively poorly trained troops, especially against armies with a lot of cavalry is very risky. Especially if they have to break from combat. Especially at that time most casualties in battles occurred when a force turned its back to flee. Not a tactic in those circumstances I would have been brave enough to go for.

Might also have been a bit generous to the defeated. With their forces in disorder and in a relatively limited valley with the Romans attacking behind them I would probably have expected at least one wing of the Berbers to be virtually destroyed. Unless the force actually broke out through Rodric's reassembled troops, which it sounds like to a degree.

Love the line "what could only be described as highly prejudiced intent ":D:D

Julian has got himself into a hell of a mess and also I thing the avalanche is just about unstoppable now in terms of avoiding a big war. With Roman forces fighting Muslims in Iberia, a much larger attack coming up and a Roman fortress surrendered by treachery there is going to be mayhem. Even with modern communications to avoid confusion I find it difficult for the Caliph to pull back his forces now without losing a lot of face and support while Justinian's temper is likely go really blow.

Great to see this back.

Steve

Yes, that was the risk. Roderic knew the Romans were very valuable since his troops are not top notch, yet with the Romans nearby in ambush, their morale was much higher and with his intensive drilling since his previous defeat they have improved a little in terms of cohesion. They did lose a fair number as they retreated, which I think is mentioned there, and that is to be expected because of their quality. Remember though, at their core is the Visigothic cavalry, experienced, made up of nobles and cohesive enough to make a difference.

Julian and Tariq's force have suffered considerable casualties, although a large part has escaped. The Berber troops by themselves outnumber the Romans, and remember that the Romans do not have nearly as much cavalry as they do. it was basically a shock attack mounted with the element of surprise. The Roman Infantry could have pursued, but with all those horsemen already fleeing, they wouldn't be able to catch up, and the Roman cavalry by itself could find themselves in their own trap further down the valley. With the higher quality of the Berber troops, they were able to fight through Roderic's less skilled militia, yet Stephen felt that it was enough of a victory without needless losses to himself. He only has these 6,000 soldiers, and although well equipped, skilled and generously provisioned, he cannot be sure when he will receive more reinforcements. He and George are not going to be too eager to chase down people in a valley that has ravines leading off it. Could be more Berbers lurking there in wait. As for Roderic, he knows he's lucky to have a victory and doesn't want to push it too far.

Yep, there will be more than a measure of mayhem. The Caliph is going to be in a sticky position, and Justinian, well, let's just say he's in no mood to mess about. ;)

Not simple for those involved, I mean where would the fun be for us if it was? :p As long as it is reasonably plausible and accurate which I strive hard to pay attention to, we should take all the opportunities this period of history and this TL give us. :D

Once again, glad you are enjoying this. :)


Sargon
 
Awesome, sir, awesome. I love the bits about Theophilos bits. Not only amusing, but an excellent demonstration of the logistics of the period and historical contingency. I can imagine alt-AHer's writing "For Want of a Privy."
 
Great stuff although I'm wondering where that spare wing of cavalry came from if it's not from the main king of Spain at this point. The details is quite exact and it does show it's use in describing the full battlefield. Although I'm not that exactly into the minutiae of late Roman/Byzantine politics - the story is still very appealing.
 
Riveting battle scene Sargon, absolutely smashing!

Did Justinian dispatch any naval forces to interdict possible Caliphate reinforcements from North Africa? Or is all his ships in Sicily waiting to load troops?
 

Sargon

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And... here is the Midgard Seal Of Approval! I am enjoying this TL greatly, keep up the good work!

Really glad you are enjoying it. :) Your Seal of Approval is very much appreciated old chap, as I know you don't bestow it lightly. :cool: We really must get one of those made as an image to put on the forums. ;)

Awesome, sir, awesome. I love the bits about Theophilos bits. Not only amusing, but an excellent demonstration of the logistics of the period and historical contingency. I can imagine alt-AHer's writing "For Want of a Privy."

Excellent! I hoped the bits about Theophilos' bits would be popular with people. The smelly missive travelling all that distance has had an effect then. ;) In this case, 'For Want of a Privy' may well be apt. :p


Sargon
 
Sargon, I have to say that I've read a fair few scenarios and stories here, but this is by far and away the most interesting.

I'd never really heard of this emperor before I read this, but I think he's one of the more fascinating charcters in history. Your overview at the beginning is very helpful in getting to grips with events and setting the scene. Throughout, you have deveopled the characters and the events with painstaiking detail, and what seems to me an effort at accuracy and plausibility.

This story is the main reason why I have signed up to this site, and if you have any other stories here, I'd be eager to read them too. I think you have a real gift for making the reader feel involeved and care about the events and characters you are writing about. If I have any critisicm, it's that the earlier chapters really could benefit from being fleshed out like the later ones, giving a more novelistic approach overall. But I understand why you presented the early ones like that, as you were wanting to draw people unfamiliar into the period and the things in it without overloading them with too much all at once. That's a logical approach, and so it's really only a minor detail. And it has been a procerss of evolution too as your story has developed further with very impressive depth.

I have printed out this entire story, and my wife is reading it too. She was wondering what I was so intersted in here, so I showed her! I have to say that she is enjoying it greatly as well.

You of course have my vote in the story competition you are in. I really hope you can win it, even though you are the underdog it seems right now. I'd encourage anyone who's thinking about doing so to vote for this, since this story is not only original, but it covers a period of history which many know little about. You have obviously gone to very great lenghts to research this and have undoubtedly spent countless hours doing so. It is only fair that your tireless efforts, enthusiasm, hard work and diligence are duly noticed and rewarded.

This story has soul and beauty. I take my hat off to you Sargon, and you can certainly count me as one of your dedicated readers and a regular contributor in terms of support an comments.
 

Sargon

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Great stuff although I'm wondering where that spare wing of cavalry came from if it's not from the main king of Spain at this point. The details is quite exact and it does show it's use in describing the full battlefield. Although I'm not that exactly into the minutiae of late Roman/Byzantine politics - the story is still very appealing.

Thanks for the comment. Well, there was no spare wing...maybe you are mixing it up with the Visigothic heavy cavalry that makes up the core of the centre?

Arab/Berber/Visigothic Force = Julian in the centre with militia backed by heavy cavalry. Tariq on one wing with lighter cavalry and experienced infantry; Tarif on the other wing with the same.

Romano-Visigotic Force = Roderic in the centre with militia, heavy cavalry, and his personal retinue/bodyguards. Osbert commanding light cavalry on one wing, and Sisbert commanding the same on the other.

Riveting battle scene Sargon, absolutely smashing!

Did Justinian dispatch any naval forces to interdict possible Caliphate reinforcements from North Africa? Or is all his ships in Sicily waiting to load troops?

Glad it made an impact on you and thanks for the comment! :) I tried to make the battle seem exciting and realistic, and I'm happy indeed it has had that effect.

You'll have to wait and see what's happening with the naval forces. ;)


Sargon
 

Sargon

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Sargon, I have to say that I've read a fair few scenarios and stories here, but this is by far and away the most interesting.

I'd never really heard of this emperor before I read this, but I think he's one of the more fascinating charcters in history. Your overview at the beginning is very helpful in getting to grips with events and setting the scene. Throughout, you have deveopled the characters and the events with painstaiking detail, and what seems to me an effort at accuracy and plausibility.

This story is the main reason why I have signed up to this site, and if you have any other stories here, I'd be eager to read them too. I think you have a real gift for making the reader feel involeved and care about the events and characters you are writing about. If I have any critisicm, it's that the earlier chapters really could benefit from being fleshed out like the later ones, giving a more novelistic approach overall. But I understand why you presented the early ones like that, as you were wanting to draw people unfamiliar into the period and the things in it without overloading them with too much all at once. That's a logical approach, and so it's really only a minor detail. And it has been a procerss of evolution too as your story has developed further with very impressive depth.

I have printed out this entire story, and my wife is reading it too. She was wondering what I was so intersted in here, so I showed her! I have to say that she is enjoying it greatly as well.

You of course have my vote in the story competition you are in. I really hope you can win it, even though you are the underdog it seems right now. I'd encourage anyone who's thinking about doing so to vote for this, since this story is not only original, but it covers a period of history which many know little about. You have obviously gone to very great lenghts to research this and have undoubtedly spent countless hours doing so. It is only fair that your tireless efforts, enthusiasm, hard work and diligence are duly noticed and rewarded.

This story has soul and beauty. I take my hat off to you Sargon, and you can certainly count me as one of your dedicated readers and a regular contributor in terms of support an comments.

Thanks for your kind comments. :)

I do in fact have a few other works in progress, but most are in the early stages at this time. You could check out Be Careful What You Wish For... which has already passed 10 parts. Be warned that it is an Alien Contact story set in the present day, done in something of a tongue and cheek style...incorporating a variety of stuff from Star Wars, Babylon 5, Star Trek and other popular SF. More comments are always welcome over there. ;)

I think I know what you are getting at regarding the earlier parts. They could be fleshed out further, but as you said, I just wanted to set the stage for things and give people an idea of OTL.

After the POD, I felt that I could work with more detail as it was now up to me to develop things by myself within the context of history. Now, it has more detail each time as I wish to get further into it and make it more epic in some ways. There's also the character development that I think is important in terms of readers engaging with the figures in the story more.

Glad to know both you and your wife are enjoying it. Hope you will continue to do so and stick around. And thanks for the vote. :cool:

Yes, I have spent considerable time researching this, but I think that's true of a lot of the writers on this site who have come up with some truly excellent works. Still, it's nice that people notice one's efforts. ;)

I am already working on the next part, however RL is a bit fraught these last few days, so not entirely sure when it will be posted, but hopefully soon. There's a lot more in terms of action and events to come, so watch this space.


Sargon
 

Grey Wolf

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Very good !

Especially liked the battle :)

I wonder how the Caliph will react to find that he is more or less at war !

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Next installment?

Hi Sargon,

I'm new to this site, but have already read about 6 storylines. Yours is by far the best. Keep it up!!

Any idea when the next installment will be posted?
 
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