Damn, Scotland will be cool ttl! Interesting twist having James V die and Alexander survive. And I like the Albany-Margaret coupling. Very enemies with benefits. A part of me hopes that they'll end up together in the end, despite it being unlikely. At least she doesn't end up with Angus or Methven ttl. Gods they were the pits. I can't wait to see what'll happen next!
Anno Obumbratio: A 16th Century Alternate History
- Thread starter DrakeRlugia
- Start date
Thank you so much, King of Danes! When writing this, I definitely wanted to try and mix things up in Scotland. The death of James V was one, but Margaret was another. I wanted her to avoid the fiasco with Angus (who IATL is still married to his first wife, no death in childbirth for her), but still end up losing the regency, since Scotland remaining pro-French, at least for now, is important to ensure the betrothal gets broken. I didn't want her regency to fail simply because of court politics, so the Albany angle was interesting to explore... especially because there are so many other similar stories from this time period (Louis XII vs. Joan of Valois, ect) where women find themselves slandered by absolutely flimsy evidence from male quarters, and were often powerless to fight against it. I'll leave it up to the readers to decide who they think is right and what really happened.
As for Margaret and Albany... there's definitely more to explore with them. Given the lengths he went to slander her, it's hard to say if there is any romantic connection left there, but at the same time... sometimes hate is just as strong as love! Regardless, this isn't the last time they've seen each other, and there will probably be more trouble in the coming years!
nice to see that Margaret is still very much a Tudor even with angus unavailable lol
Yes, I figured even without Angus in the picture, she would probably do something unpredictable regardless. It being Albany just makes it even more juicy.
I think it is a bit early to say, but at this point Portugal is in good hands in terms of heirs. Manuel has something like five sons, so the Portuguese succession is more than secured. The Habsburgs are the ones with a lack of male heirs at this point; Maximilian has only Charles (recently married to Mary Tudor) and Ferdinand, who is betrothed to Anna of Bohemia and Hungary. Depending on Queen Mary's eventual husband, the Tudors could find themselves in the odd situation of being placed into the line of the Portuguese crown if a Portuguese marriage is pursued.
As for overseas expansion, basically the same as OTL. Portugal is at the zenith of her expansions in the east, having taken Goa, Malacca and Ormuz. In around 1520, they will have their first contacts with China. Unfortunately, it's likely they will run into the same issues that burdened their later empire: a lack of man power, debts, and trade deficits. It can possibly be turned around, but I know in one of my first TLs I ever wrote, about a surviving Miguel da Paz, the Portuguese situation was only salvaged with funds and manpower from Spain. They won't have this option here.
It will definitely be on track to still occur. I don't see any way for Charles to avoid it, and he will still make those mistakes of flavoring his Flemish suite. Mary Tudor adds an extra dimension, as he's made a marriage encouraged by his grandfather the emperor, locking him out of a potential Iberian marriage to reinforce his connections there. Her attitude could also impact things, if she's overly haughty / demanding, ect. Maximilian's eventual death means that Charles will pursue the imperial crown, as he isn't going to give Francis a chance to steal it from him. We could definitely see a much worse revolt, or at least one where the royal government isn't able to just stamp it out and has to make compromises.
The main issue that still remains is that the comuneros don't really have a ready figurehead outside of Joanna, who has... her own issues. She could certainly lend her support to the rebels, but there's still the issue that by this point she's completely incompetent to rule on her own and would require significant support to do so.
Working on the next chapter as we speak, to deal with some of Queen Mary's youth. After that, we'll probably move onward to Maximilian's eventual demise. There's also that pesky monk in Wittenberg and the changes he's going to spark...
I love Maximilian way too much to even THINK about his death. This is why he lives WAY longer in my solo TLs
I have a soft spot for him too, especially his time with Mary of Burgundy. Perhaps an idea for another time... but I think in this situation, we aren't able to make any changes to his health to keep him alive any longer than IOTL. He's already dragging his coffin around everywhere he goes. Plus we need some more chaos since apparently this is what this TL is all about.
POD is way too late to keep him alive ITTL. Shame.I have a soft spot for him too, especially his time with Mary of Burgundy. Perhaps an idea for another time... but I think in this situation, we aren't able to make any changes to his health to keep him alive any longer than IOTL. He's already dragging his coffin around everywhere he goes. Plus we need some more chaos since apparently this is what this TL is all about.
You could add some family drama within the Habsburgs if the revolt occurs on the same dates as OTL and have the Comuneros meet around the figure of Ferdinand. It would be interesting to have a moment of decision for Ferdinand where he has to choose between staying loyal to be eternally the fireman of his brother's problems and inferior to him or saying, to hell with Charles! taking what he thinks really belongs to him by inheritance with the consequence of ruining relations between the branches of the Habsburgs for generations.
That is certainly an idea, and one I've thought about! Given the lack of a suitable representative to lead Spain since Charles has married Mary Tudor, I've debated if Ferdinand might be the one to be his brother's representative. Not saying that Mary couldn't do so, but I don't imagine she would have the same sway as Isabella of Portugal did. Charles sent him out of Spain c. 1518 to manage to Low Countries, and eventually came to manage the Habsburg domains in Austria. He had a similar situation to Charles, in that he was sent to be a representative to the German parts of the empire, spoke little German, and had been raised culturally as a Spaniard. I'm sure part of Charles sending him away was because of the possible threat he might've posed as a pretender, but in this TL, Charles may have no other choice.
Perhaps an alternate division of the Habsburg inheritance?
There's also the whole Jagiellon issue in Bohemia in Hungary. If Ferdinand remains in Spain, representative or king, he will certainly not marry Anne of Bohemia and Hungary. If her brother is still killed, that will make for a very unique situation.
Certainly something to think about...
Charles made the Burgundian match who was arranged for him and who he wanted for the interest of his native land. And Joanna REFUTED to give ANY help to the comuneros OTL and would surely do the same ATL
No way who Charles would let Ferdinand to remain in Spain. He would be sent away shortly after Charles‘ arrival there as OTL. And remember who in OTL Charles married Isabella of Portugal only in 1526 meaning who he had nobody to cover her role before that date. Plus Ferdinand is destined to marry Anne of Bohemia and Hungary as soon Ferdinand of Aragon died (another reason for sending the boy to Maximilian as soon was possible)
He did. I would say personal feeling weighed less into it, and more of political considerations. It is definitely not a bad marriage, just a different one.
You are correct in that Joanna refused to aid the rebels, but I don't like relying plainly on our time period for reference for an alternative time period. It's helpful, yes, but we aren't bound to it. That's the whole reasoning for alternate history, to explore other possibilities, and for entertainment. People make choices for a variety reasons. Hindsight allows us to see things that aren't evident to these people at the time they make those choices.
On top of that, there's no denying that Joanna, whatever political / sexist propaganda might've been hurled at her in this period, there was no doubt that she was a woman who was severely mentally ill. Her grandmother had been mentally ill, and mental health issues were common amongst both of the Iberian royal houses.
The point I'm trying to make, is that someone in a situation such as Joanna's is perfectly capable of having lucid moments and making the "correct" decision, just as she was perfectly capable of making a disastrous one. Obviously, what is correct and disastrous are completely oblique terms; before the comuneros stormed Torsedillas and basically demanded Joanna's support, a royal delegation had arrived previously asking her to denounce them, which she demurred from doing, wanting specific terms.
Adrian of Utrecht, along with her confessor, and Ocha de Landa managed to convince her that supporting the comuneros would be detrimental to Charles' reign, but given the lengths they had to go to secure her noninterference, we cannot be surprised that Charles tightened the rules on her confinement in the aftermath of the revolt. She was clearly not a person on whom Charles wanted to rely on, because she could've just as easily given her support to the rebels. Unpredictable people can make unpredictable choices.
Who's to say what might happen? Margaret initially didn't even want Charles to go to Spain following the death of Ferdinand, and many in the Castilian government feared the influence of his Burgundian entourage, for they feared he might favor the French and make decisions that went against Spanish interests. He was certainly in no rush to get to Spain, he only reached there towards the end of 1517.
Ferdinand was sent away because of the marriage plans for him, but there's no concrete evidence that he was sent away because he was a threat. Even the most well laid plans can blow up in our faces, after all.
In what way is Ferdinand destined to marry Anne of Bohemia and Hungary? Destined seems like a very strong word. Any number of things might've came between the marriage. She could've died young. He could've died young. Maybe her parents decide to dedicate her to a religious life (not uncommon amongst the Jagiellons, even those 'early' in the birth order). They could've easily ended up with a childless marriage. Mary and Louis II might've been the ones to have several children. What played out in our world allows us to see that it was an advantageous marriage for the Habsburgs. But at the time the betrothal was made, few had any idea that Louis II of Hungary would go and get himself killed at Mohacs and pass his kingdoms to his brother-in-law. At the time? A good marriage, but not something I'd say was destined; destiny and history are two different things.
They weren't married until 1521 (I've seen 1515 claimed as well, but given her young age, Ferdinand's young age + being in Spain, I'm assuming it was a proxy marriage). We all know from Anne of Brittany's experience with Emperor Maximilian that proxy marriages don't hold weight. Betrothals are broken just as easily as they are made, and there are plenty of royal princes and princesses that can attest to that.
This, a thousand times this. It's alternative history, we can be creative and not everything is set in stone.
For independent Brittany Claude just needs to die without male issue. Burgundy is far more difficult since even if Charles and Ferdinand die childless, whichever of their sisters inherit will be Duchess of Burgundy and Queen of Spain.
Anne in August of 1515 was married by proxy by Maximilian I in name of either of his grandsons with the promise who he would have consummated the marriage himself if neither of the boys would be available for her in a year meaning who Ferdinand had to marry Anne as soon Ferdinand of Aragon died and his wardship passed to his other grandfather
Right. At this point, there isn't an obvious way that Burgundy can become independent without a deliberate partitioning. The most likely scenario at this point would be Burgundy being granted to some younger son, but still a vassal of Spain or Austria, only for said Duke of Burgundy to declare independence.
If you want to go for maximum drama, you could tie that into the Reformation and have the Habsburg Duke of Burgundy not only declare independence but convert to Protestantism.