I wonder what would happen if Anne died before getting married and Louis didn't immolate himself against the Ottomans? The Jagiellons could survive or Hungary would descend into a violent succession war with a constant threat of Ottoman invasion.
Burgundy is certainly possible if Charles manages to have a second son. His bad luck in that situation saw the Low Countries was basically attached to Spain, which wasn't a good fit for either country. Brittany would be a bit more difficult, Claude could certainly die without issue, leaving the Duchy to Renee, but Renee also renounced her claims in favor of the Duchy of Chartres. Not saying it's bound, of course, but this is what it's likely to happen a) Claude dies, Renee is still unmarried... Francis would probably marry her in that case. b) Claude dies, Renee has already married abroad... in this case, Francis would probably lean on her renunciation and hamstring Claude into leaving Brittany to him. Brittany was already being ran by French administrators in Claude's reign, so regaining independence for the Duchy is very unlikely.I am hoping we can get an independent Burgundy out of this mess. Maybe even an independent Brittany.
Thank you so much! I feel like people lose sight of this. AH is meant to be entertainment, after all. No one wants to read a strict retreading of what actually happened... that's what history books are for. I get obviously that we want things to make sense; but even in our own history, unlikely things have happened.This, a thousand times this. It's alternative history, we can be creative and not everything is set in stone.
And within a year, in 1516, her father was also dead (Vladislaus II). I wouldn't say this was a binding agreement, considering nearly six years passed before Ferdinand and Anne were properly married. Once Vladislaus II was dead and Maximilian had Anne as his ward, he could really do as pleased. The Habsburgs were in no hurry to make this marriage, and Maximilian didn't hold up his end of the bargain by marrying her when the year passed.Anne in August of 1515 was married by proxy by Maximilian I in name of either of his grandsons with the promise who he would have consummated the marriage himself if neither of the boys would be available for her in a year meaning who Ferdinand had to marry Anne as soon Ferdinand of Aragon died and his wardship passed to his other grandfather
This. A second son would be granted Burgundy, but would still maintain it's ties to the empire, IMO.Right. At this point, there isn't an obvious way that Burgundy can become independent without a deliberate partitioning. The most likely scenario at this point would be Burgundy being granted to some younger son, but still a vassal of Spain or Austria, only for said Duke of Burgundy to declare independence.
If you want to go for maximum drama, you could tie that into the Reformation and have the Habsburg Duke of Burgundy not only declare independence but convert to Protestantism.
If Anne dies, then there's no clear connection to the Habsburgs, though they have their own claims to Hungary and Bohemia. Louis could certainly survive, though Hungary's position in the 1520s was not... ideal. The magnates basically ran the country and had severely impoverished the royal administration. Louis didn't even have funds for his own court and had to pawn things. If he doesn't die in battle, then he'd probably continue to rule Bohemia and the rump of Hungary, as it's likely he'd still lose a great portion of Hungary. You'd probably see him move his court out of Hungary and into Prague as it'd be a more defensive position.I wonder what would happen if Anne died before getting married and Louis didn't immolate himself against the Ottomans? The Jagiellons could survive or Hungary would descend into a violent succession war with a constant threat of Ottoman invasion.
According to the treaty of Vienna the Habsburgs would be the next rulers, but as you pointed out both monarchies are elective in theory…Now, if Anne died AND Louis died...that would probably be a mess. Both Hungary and Bohemia are theoretically elective monarchies. In the crisis of the Ottoman invasion and the lack of a clear heir, they may invite the Habsburgs in regardless or attempt to elect a native monarch. They only other Jagiellon would be Sigismund the Old. Not sure if either state would be willing to elect him king.
I think the Habsburgs being elected would be the most likely, too, since they'd be in a position to better defend those territories versus a native prince. Was there really anyone who could step into the shoes of the other native monarchs of the late 15th century, like George Podebrady or Matthias Corvinus c. 1520?According to the treaty of Vienna the Habsburgs would be the next rulers, but as you pointed out both monarchies are elective in theory…
Thanks for answering. If I had to choose, I would prefer the second scenario just to see how things turn out later, although it would not be bad to read how Jagiellon try to reverse their poor situation.If Anne dies, then there's no clear connection to the Habsburgs, though they have their own claims to Hungary and Bohemia. Louis could certainly survive, though Hungary's position in the 1520s was not... ideal. The magnates basically ran the country and had severely impoverished the royal administration. Louis didn't even have funds for his own court and had to pawn things. If he doesn't die in battle, then he'd probably continue to rule Bohemia and the rump of Hungary, as it's likely he'd still lose a great portion of Hungary. You'd probably see him move his court out of Hungary and into Prague as it'd be a more defensive position.
Now, if Anne died AND Louis died...that would probably be a mess. Both Hungary and Bohemia are theoretically elective monarchies. In the crisis of the Ottoman invasion and the lack of a clear heir, they may invite the Habsburgs in regardless or attempt to elect a native monarch. They only other Jagiellon would be Sigismund the Old. Not sure if either state would be willing to elect him king.
Renee would get back Brittany if Claude died childless, she would never renounce to it... If Claude died while Renee is still too young (and she would not be yet 14 if Claude died as OTL so kill her heirless between 1517 and 1520 and see who Francis will remarry elsewhere renouncing to Brittany). If Claude died leaving only daughters then the separation between France and Brittany would be guaranteedBurgundy is certainly possible if Charles manages to have a second son. His bad luck in that situation saw the Low Countries was basically attached to Spain, which wasn't a good fit for either country. Brittany would be a bit more difficult, Claude could certainly die without issue, leaving the Duchy to Renee, but Renee also renounced her claims in favor of the Duchy of Chartres. Not saying it's bound, of course, but this is what it's likely to happen a) Claude dies, Renee is still unmarried... Francis would probably marry her in that case. b) Claude dies, Renee has already married abroad... in this case, Francis would probably lean on her renunciation and hamstring Claude into leaving Brittany to him. Brittany was already being ran by French administrators in Claude's reign, so regaining independence for the Duchy is very unlikely.
At that point (after the year of time was over) Anne‘s husband was Ferdinand and waiting for them to be older before another more binding ceremony and consummation was quite normal as they were already legally married (Louis and Mary married in the same proxy ceremony, with both of them presents, but their proper marriage was also delayed until 1521, some months after the one of Anna and Ferdinand)And within a year, in 1516, her father was also dead (Vladislaus II). I wouldn't say this was a binding agreement, considering nearly six years passed before Ferdinand and Anne were properly married. Once Vladislaus II was dead and Maximilian had Anne as his ward, he could really do as pleased. The Habsburgs were in no hurry to make this marriage, and Maximilian didn't hold up his end of the bargain by marrying her when the year passed.
She renounced IOTL for the Duchy of Chartres. Not sure of the time frame, but she did. Some say she held the title as early as 1510, while others say Francis gave her the title. Regardless, it likely happened when she was underage. One might argue if such a renunciation was legal, but it did occur and was considering binding. She was likely forced into it. Regardless, if Claude dies without any issue, Francis will likely marry Renee despite the renunciation in order to keep Brittany tied to France. If Claude leaves daughters, yes, there is certainly a possibility of Brittany separating from France, but given Claude's position as Duchess, it wouldn't surprise me if she was forced to make over the Duchy to Francis before she died. We have to remember that even when Claude died IOTL and left the Duchy to her son the Dauphin, Brittany didn't suddenly regain it's independence. It still had French administrators and the successions were merged in 1532. Even after the Valois line died out, Claude's closest agnates weren't able to lay claim to Brittany, and it passed to Henry IV.Renee would get back Brittany if Claude died childless, she would never renounce to it... If Claude died while Renee is still too young (and she would not be yet 14 if Claude died as OTL so kill her heirless between 1517 and 1520 and see who Francis will remarry elsewhere renouncing to Brittany). If Claude died leaving only daughters then the separation between France and Brittany would be guaranteed
I'm not denying the legality of such a match. It happened quite frequently in this time period. Proxy marriages were common when one or both parties might be young, to delay consummation, for whatever reason. But proxy marriages were also more easily broken than a union that actually performed, such as Anne of Brittany and Emperor Maximilian.At that point (after the year of time was over) Anne‘s husband was Ferdinand and waiting for them to be older before another more binding ceremony and consummation was quite normal as they were already legally married (Louis and Mary married in the same proxy ceremony, with both of them presents, but their proper marriage was also delayed until 1521, some months after the one of Anna and Ferdinand)
Thank you! I'm hoping to have the next chapter out in the next few days.I like this timeline.
Renee had full rights on Brittany until 1528 and tried to reclaim it as her birthright as her mother had willed it to her. Francis had no way to get Brittany BEFORE the union of 1532. Considering who Francis III of Brittany was only 18 years old at his death and only 6 at his mother’s death (and was hostage in Spain for more than four years when he was 8 to 12 years old and that practically ruined him) is not so strange who he had not an independent rule on Brittany.She renounced IOTL for the Duchy of Chartres. Not sure of the time frame, but she did. Some say she held the title as early as 1510, while others say Francis gave her the title. Regardless, it likely happened when she was underage. One might argue if such a renunciation was legal, but it did occur and was considering binding. She was likely forced into it. Regardless, if Claude dies without any issue, Francis will likely marry Renee despite the renunciation in order to keep Brittany tied to France. If Claude leaves daughters, yes, there is certainly a possibility of Brittany separating from France, but given Claude's position as Duchess, it wouldn't surprise me if she was forced to make over the Duchy to Francis before she died. We have to remember that even when Claude died IOTL and left the Duchy to her son the Dauphin, Brittany didn't suddenly regain it's independence. It still had French administrators and the successions were merged in 1532. Even after the Valois line died out, Claude's closest agnates weren't able to lay claim to Brittany, and it passed to Henry IV.
If she leaves behind any daughters, they would probably be given other appanages or large dowries in lieu of inheritance rights to Brittany. Claude didn't govern the duchy as her mother had; the French administrated it. Breaking Brittany away at this late stage would be very difficult, France isn't going to let it go, and they certainly aren't going to let one of their princesses take it as a dowry to a foreign prince, or worse, raise up a French noblemen to such a position. It's opening a backdoor into the French heartland. They can't allow it. We find often in this period that what is legal or customary was often dispensed with for a wide variety of reasons.
They were broken ONLY if existed a reason for doing it and was pretty unusual seeing that happening (Anne of Brittany was a particular case, specially as Charles also was already married by-proxy to Margaret of Austria…I'm not denying the legality of such a match. It happened quite frequently in this time period. Proxy marriages were common when one or both parties might be young, to delay consummation, for whatever reason. But proxy marriages were also more easily broken than a union that actually performed, such as Anne of Brittany and Emperor Maximilian.
Yes, and we see how that happened. Renee had no chance or reclaiming her inheritance. Her own mother's will was disregarded because handing it off to Renee and possibly a foreign prince was not a good idea for France. France was already essentially governing Brittany at the time that Claude became Duchess. He didn't need to get his hands on it because he already essentially possessed it. The perpetual union just solidified that fact. Claude was /not/ an active ruler in that aspect, and her reign as Duchess only sped up the process of integration into France. IMO, it's too late to stop that. 1520s vs 1530s is not a big jump. If for some reason his daughter did inherit Brittany, he isn't going to marry her to a Prince of the Blood and risk rising up a rival.Renee had full rights on Brittany until 1528 and tried to reclaim it as her birthright as her mother had willed it to her. Francis had no way to get Brittany BEFORE the union of 1532. Considering who Francis III of Brittany was only 18 years old at his death and only 6 at his mother’s death (and was hostage in Spain for more than four years when he was 8 to 12 years old and that practically ruined him) is not so strange who he had not an independent rule on Brittany.
Claude‘s eldest daughter would be fully entitled to the succession of Brittany and Francis would have no way to prevent it… The only thing who he could do is marrying her to a Prince of Blood for keeping Brittany under France…
I wouldn't say it was unusual. Anne of Brittany's marriage was broken for the exact reason that France taking Brittany was more important than the Habsburg marriage. Louis XII had his marriage broken so he could marry Anne of Brittany, as well. There are plenty of stories of marriages or even betrothals being broken up for political reasons.They were broken ONLY if existed a reason for doing it and was pretty unusual seeing that happening (Anne of Brittany was a particular case, specially as Charles also was already married by-proxy to Margaret of Austria…
Exactly. Just because a will is written, or something is stipulated, doesn't mean it's going to happen. France is pretty famous in this period for wills getting annulled, even monarchs would have their wills annulled.That did not stop the French crown from keeping Champaign after the bloodline of Joan of Navarre split off from that of the crown. They gave Joan the second a nice stache of lands next to Navarre as compensation.
She's okay! This is theoretical discussion. She isn't going anywhere yet.Poor Claude
Actually after Claude died, Francis at first kept styling himself Duke of Brittany and the Estates immediately demanded that he stop using that title, as the duchy was now his son's. So if Claude dies leaving only daughters, the Estates will do as OTL and refuse to have anyone else but the eldest one claim the title of duke/duchess. The heiress will certainly be betrothed to a prince of the blood, preferably Francis's closest male relative in case he has no sons from his next wife. In this case, I think the closest in age would be Charles III de Bourbon's son François, Count of Clermont (b.1517) if he doesn't die in infancy or Antoine de Bourbon, who are third and fourth in line as long as Francis has no sons.If Claude leaves daughters, yes, there is certainly a possibility of Brittany separating from France, but given Claude's position as Duchess, it wouldn't surprise me if she was forced to make over the Duchy to Francis before she died.
Only if Mary is betrothed to the Dauphin, which...pretty sure Catherine of Aragon would die before she lets that happen.Hopefully Francis doesn’t exploit the opportunity to try and use Richard de la Pole to create further chaos in England.