No Terror of Justinian - Glory Instead! (The Roman Emperor Who Lost His Nose - A TL of Justinian II)
- Thread starter Sargon
- Start date
/wrist said:
Welcome to the board, and most pleased indeed this is one of your favourites already! That's cool! Cheers for that, very nice of you, and I'll certainly be doing more.
Merry Prankster said:
Also thanks, and things are going to become even more interesting hopefully soon.
Now as for the rest of you lot out there, especially my other regulars, more comments appreciated as they feed the fires of motivation.
Sargon
Sargon
Damn you! Just spent a hour or so browsing while trying to find this thread! Initially followed your link but it wouldn't allow me to comment!
Anyway looking good. Going to be a hell of a conflict shortly I suspect although events in Spain could delay or trigger it. The empire is heavily outnumbered by the Caliphate in terms of money and men but they do have good defensive positions and Greek fire, as well as a lot of preparation. Also the caliphate is now very big and keeping control must be a big problem. Possibly after some checks and problem Justinian might be able to support some usurper and prompt some internal unrest. Going to have to watch he doesn't suffer that problem himself, or intervention by other European states causing him problems.
Steve
Damn you! Just spent a hour or so browsing while trying to find this thread!
Initially followed your link but it wouldn't allow me to comment!Anyway looking good. Going to be a hell of a conflict shortly I suspect although events in Spain could delay or trigger it. The empire is heavily outnumbered by the Caliphate in terms of money and men but they do have good defensive positions and Greek fire, as well as a lot of preparation. Also the caliphate is now very big and keeping control must be a big problem. Possibly after some checks and problem Justinian might be able to support some usurper and prompt some internal unrest. Going to have to watch he doesn't suffer that problem himself, or intervention by other European states causing him problems.
Steve
Sargon
Damn you! Just spent a hour or so browsing while trying to find this thread!
Anyway looking good. Going to be a hell of a conflict shortly I suspect although events in Spain could delay or trigger it. The empire is heavily outnumbered by the Caliphate in terms of money and men but they do have good defensive positions and Greek fire, as well as a lot of preparation. Also the caliphate is now very big and keeping control must be a big problem. Possibly after some checks and problem Justinian might be able to support some usurper and prompt some internal unrest. Going to have to watch he doesn't suffer that problem himself, or intervention by other European states causing him problems.
Steve
Wouldn't allow you to comment? That's odd, wonder why that would be the case. That won't be helping if other people have the same problem, I could be missing out on comments!
Well, if you've been browsing for a hour, were you distraced by other threads?
Often happens to me too....head off to comment and get distracted, then when I finally head off to comment on the thread I'm looking for, discover it has been bumped off the front page, sometimes a few pages back.Yes, keep an eye on Spain, it is going to be an interesting place to be soon. The Empire has made many decent and effective preparations, but the Caliphate does have a lot of money and manpower....however, at around this period in history it reached it's greatest extent OTL, and in fact became over-extended, with shrinkage appearing not long afterwards. Make no mistake though, it is very formidable, and it is more than capable of springing a surprise or two. The next few years are going to be critical...and don't forget those disaffected nobles who think Justinian's new ways of doing things are an affront to tradition....
Glad you are anjoying it, and many thanks for the comment, always appreciated!
Sargon
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Cheers for that Trajen. Yes, there will be an updated map to go with 710 A.D. after Part VIII is posted. It's my intention to provide a big Empire-wide map every 5 or 10 years or so (the last big one was in 700 A.D.), with smaller ones for specific campaigns or events (like the Thessaly campaign of 707-08). I've actually been working on some other maps too, however, I need to do further detailed research, and am just waiting for some books to arrive to clarify a few areas I wish to get much deeper than usual info about. I wish the maps to be as accurate as possible. I also hope to provide at some point a list of leaders in various places, so you guys can keep tabs of who's who.
Midgard said:
Thanks!
Knowing you like it is really excellent for me, as I know you are the one with probably the deepest knowledge of all of us here about Byzantium. I'll try to make sure it continues to live up to the expectations of everyone here.Sargon
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Eh, thats just because when you follow one of those links, it doesn't treat it as though you're still signed into the forum.Wouldn't allow you to comment? That's odd, wonder why that would be the case. That won't be helping if other people have the same problem, I could be missing out on comments!
Just a note to people that I have not forgotten about this - far from it in fact.
As many of you know, I have been overseas recently, and hauling a load of books with me for research was not an appealing idea. Besides, I wanted to travel, not spend my time writing too much. However, now that more books I wanted for research have finally arrived, and once I've fully recovered from my jet lag and sorted a few things out here, I will be completing the next chapter.
Stay tuned.
Sargon
As many of you know, I have been overseas recently, and hauling a load of books with me for research was not an appealing idea. Besides, I wanted to travel, not spend my time writing too much. However, now that more books I wanted for research have finally arrived, and once I've fully recovered from my jet lag and sorted a few things out here, I will be completing the next chapter.
Stay tuned.
Sargon
Looking forward to more!
Sargon
Ditto that. My previous comment, of 20/1/07, very tongue in cheek was about getting distracted by other threads. Generally avoided the 1900 + & - forums for the past few months as taking far too much time and got lured in again today.
Anyway, hope you had a good holiday [unless it was w**k
] and hope to see some more soon.Steve
Grey Wolf
Donor
Comments on Parts III and IV
Behind the times as usual, but comments at last !
Very enjoyable ! I found the detail of IV, one year in detail with dialogue, very good for engaging me in events, and the characters. I can see how the POD event has caused a flip in Justinian II's thinking but kkept his essential character the same - i.e instead of believing he has a God-given right to be vengeful, believing he has such to be merciful. Whilst I can see it being good policy, especially with regards to keeping on a proven general, I do wonder whether someone ELSE might view him as having gone soft, and perhaps even attribute it to barbarian influence, perhaps from his wife. Myakes is certainly right to worry on his behalf, methinks
Regarding dialogue, I think Heraclius would probably ask Justinian why he is being so magnanimous, rather than lenient, though of course we are assumed to be translating it from Greek anyway so it hardly matters !
Khazars are a people and the Khagan is their king ? I assume these are up in the Ukraine somewhere ? I'm also intrigued that the ruler of the Bulgars in the 700s has the title Khan ?
An interesting note about possible primitive plastic surgery by an Indian doctor ! Whilst I am (thankfully !) inexperienced in chopping people's noses off, I guess in some cases it might leave flaps of skin that could be sculpted into something other than a gaping hole. One wonders what Theodora thought of her husband's looks ! Also, what happened with regard to his profile on coins, or did they use the image from his previous reign, or were profiles not in current use in the 700s ?
A final note, I assume the Caliph really did demolish the church in Damascus and build a mosque in OTL ? Did no one mind, or was it by this time basically a ruin ?
Very interested also in how thriving and important Carthage still was by the 700s...
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
Behind the times as usual, but comments at last !
Very enjoyable ! I found the detail of IV, one year in detail with dialogue, very good for engaging me in events, and the characters. I can see how the POD event has caused a flip in Justinian II's thinking but kkept his essential character the same - i.e instead of believing he has a God-given right to be vengeful, believing he has such to be merciful. Whilst I can see it being good policy, especially with regards to keeping on a proven general, I do wonder whether someone ELSE might view him as having gone soft, and perhaps even attribute it to barbarian influence, perhaps from his wife. Myakes is certainly right to worry on his behalf, methinks
Regarding dialogue, I think Heraclius would probably ask Justinian why he is being so magnanimous, rather than lenient, though of course we are assumed to be translating it from Greek anyway so it hardly matters !
Khazars are a people and the Khagan is their king ? I assume these are up in the Ukraine somewhere ? I'm also intrigued that the ruler of the Bulgars in the 700s has the title Khan ?
An interesting note about possible primitive plastic surgery by an Indian doctor ! Whilst I am (thankfully !) inexperienced in chopping people's noses off, I guess in some cases it might leave flaps of skin that could be sculpted into something other than a gaping hole. One wonders what Theodora thought of her husband's looks ! Also, what happened with regard to his profile on coins, or did they use the image from his previous reign, or were profiles not in current use in the 700s ?
A final note, I assume the Caliph really did demolish the church in Damascus and build a mosque in OTL ? Did no one mind, or was it by this time basically a ruin ?
Very interested also in how thriving and important Carthage still was by the 700s...
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
Well, I'm glad someone bumped this up to the top, else I'd have likely never found it.
This is a very nice timeline, and I've enjoyed reading it. Honestly, I've always been more interested in the Western Empire (can't imagine why; my people at the time were the ones hanging out in the woods in northern Britain painting themselves blue and harassing anybody within reach) but this is an exception. It feels like the author was actually there.
This is a very nice timeline, and I've enjoyed reading it. Honestly, I've always been more interested in the Western Empire (can't imagine why; my people at the time were the ones hanging out in the woods in northern Britain painting themselves blue and harassing anybody within reach) but this is an exception. It feels like the author was actually there.
I think the Caliph forced-buy the Church (at what price I don't know) Because before then it was used by BOTH Muslims & Christians. With one side for Muslims & the other for Christians.
I'm glad you liked that. I've been aiming for not changing his character too much, whilst removing his obsession with revenge that robbed him of a lot of his reason. I thought that adding dialogue would help with characterisation, especially since I aim for people to like and understand the characters in this story more. Myakes has legitimate concerns, and we will see what happens there.
Grey Wolf said:
Perhaps, but since this is not in the original language, we can get away with that!
Grey Wolf said:
Yes, go up to the Crimea and head north. There you will find the Khazars. As for the Bulgars, it seems from my reading that 'Khan' is indeed how their ruler is referred to at this time, bearing in mind they had only arrived in the area relatively recently having been on a nomadic move westwards.
Grey Wolf said:
The surgery is informed speculation in the sources I have been looking at. It may or may not have happened, but people from India at that time apparently had a reputation for advanced medicine and medical techniques, so it is probably plausible. The description Turtledove gives in his book is of taking a skin graft from another part of his body and using that as a patch over the hole left behind, the wound starting at the soft part of the nose, not right at the top if the standard form of rhinokopia was used. Two small wooden tubes were inserted inside to help the healing process so the regrowing skin did not block everything up.
Theodora loved Justinian very much by all accounts, even going so far as to warn her husband in advance of her brother's plot against him. I would guess that she found him palatable enough in physical terms too as she gave him a son.
The coins from his second reign do not show his disfigurement, although his nose looks quite long, however he appears to have had rather narrow features since the coins from his first reign show more or less the same things. Profiles were not the fashion on coins at this time, instead a frontal view of the face was depicted.
Grey Wolf said:
The church was bought by the Caliph, although it was more of a forced purchase as rad_vsovereign says. Justinian in OTL did in fact send some of the Empire's finest craftsmen to help the Caliph embellish the new building as an act of goodwill.
More will be revealed about Carthage and North Africa later. It is currently under Arab rule and has been for some years now, although there's not actually that much left of Carthage However, since the conquest is recent, there are still strong elements in the area who would be favourable to a Roman return.
Thanks for that. The hybrid style of writing it was designed to give a good overview in terms of the passage of time, whilst at the same time inserting prose and dialogue that gives it more of a novelised feel and helps one to empathise with the characters. It's also good for introducing some action scenes with more impact than those in the main TL listing when necessary for dramatic purposes. It seems from the positive comments so far that it has worked well, so I will continue to use it.
Well, I'm glad someone bumped this up to the top, else I'd have likely never found it.
This is a very nice timeline, and I've enjoyed reading it. Honestly, I've always been more interested in the Western Empire (can't imagine why; my people at the time were the ones hanging out in the woods in northern Britain painting themselves blue and harassing anybody within reach) but this is an exception. It feels like the author was actually there.
Glad you are liking it too, and thanks for the comments. If you have the feeling that it seems like I am writing from the perspective of actually being there, then that's great and very nice to hear! Funnily enough, I do have a cut on my nose so maybe I was there in a previous life....
That's pretty much it from what I can gather from my sources.
Just a note to say that the TL is not abandoned at all. It has been on hiatus for a while since I have been busy and have suffered from writers' block. I fully intend to return to it in due course.
Sargon
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Sargon
That last bit is excellent news. [That it will be back some time hopefully that is]. Hope the block doesn't last much longer and we see more of events.
Steve
I hope to get something done before next month because after that, things will be a litle busy for a few weeks.
Sargon
I ended up being rather more busy than I intended - sorry about that.
I have written some of the next chapter, but I'm wondering how much appetite there is here for me to continue this. I know stevep would love more, but how about the rest of you? If I'm going to invest time in this, I'd like to gauge how many of you will still be interested in reading it. So voice your support here if interested and that'll give me the impetus to write a load more if people so desire.
Sargon