Jesu, Isabella must have a titanium womb for all of them. Poor woman needs a break. Atleast a couple of the sons is most likely gonna enter the church.Oh, they have more children.Twelve all together though two more of them die fairly young (including Isabella who died young, before). They end up having three more living sons: Carlos (b. 1536); Enrique (b. 1538) and Maximiliano (b. 1541) and two more living daughters: Leonor (b. 1540) and Margarita (b. 1543).
Anno Obumbratio: A 16th Century Alternate History
- Thread starter DrakeRlugia
- Start date
As @BlueFlowwer mentioned, Mary and John do have a daughter named Mary, born 1535 who would be the appropriate age for him. Eleanor and João also have a daughter named Beatriz, born in 1530. I imagine she's probably the front runner for Fernando Alonso, but any number of things could frustrate that match: political reasons, haggling over the dowry, she dies as a teenager, the fact that maybe I don't want to see the Spanish Habsburgs and Aviz end up as inbred as they did IOTL...
Aside from those two, the bigger kingdoms are lacking matches: all of François' daughters are too old. He's not yet done having children with Beatriz, but any potential child will be born from ~1540 onward. A Franco-Spanish marriage could help ease tensions, but I can't see Fernando Alonso waiting until the 1550s to get married, it just isn't feasible. The King of Poland's youngest daughter is still four years older than Fernando Alonso. John Zápolya has a bevy of daughters with Anna, Ferdinand's former betrothed, but Hungary's shifting religious outlook / hurt feelings would probably preclude such a match, plus Hungary has very little to offer to Spain.
Ferdinand's brother will have some daughters available: Anne was born in 1533, but again, there's the inbreeding issue and the fact that Charles' other daughters would probably be better used as alliances within the empire; his two eldest daughters will become queens, so the others marrying into Germany doesn't seem too absurd, since they'll likely marry into the Electoral families or larger German principalities like Cleves or Bavaria.
A wild card could be Louis IV of Naples eldest daughter, Francesca. She's a year younger than Queen Mary's daughter. Such a marriage could be useful in mending fences, but would probably require Ferdinand to recognize Louis IV as the legitimate King of Naples. Granted Charles has agreed to this twice (Longwy and Lucca) but that doesn't mean Spain doesn't feel like Naples is still rightfully theirs. But if French control becomes solidified, then Spain would probably be better of recognizing Louis IV and perhaps arranging a marriage between the two royal houses. It could be a helpful tactic to potentially wean Naples away from French influence.
Let's just say Ferdinand and Isabella are a better 'match' in that aspect. Ferdinand being around in Spain full time probably helps, too!
More like luck being on Isabella's side. No joke, if she had a serious medical issue during labor (or a serious medical issue at all), I can promise you that the Saint's relics and bones would probably get dragged out before you could even blink an eye.
By that logic, the ordinance shouldn’t really have applied to Brittany either- We’ll have to see what the military resolution ends up being, but as long as there remains a possibility that Milan can be integrated into France, Francis isn’t going to want to make reforms that cause the realms to diverge.
Talking of the Turks as well- the map didn’t make super clear what the situation in Algeria was? Mention was made of Hayreddin Barbarossa acting with impunity, but is this as sultan of Algiers or as kaptan pasha of the ottoman navy?
If Algeria has become an ottoman possession and the Spanish have lost Naples, that’ll definitely change the dynamic- with decreased cooperation between Spain and Naples, raiding might have increased. With Ferdinand in Spain as well, his priorities would be asserting power over Algeria- Naples alone is now left to bolster Venetian control in Cyprus and suleiman might see this as a golden opportunity. Cyprus and maybe even Crete could fall to the ottomans in the 1540s, further spooking Christendom and potentially leading to an ottoman advance into Sicily. Sicily I think could have become an ottoman eyalet in roughly this period- it’s vulnerable to naval attacks, and instead of being sandwiched between two kingdoms ruled by Charles V, it’s right between two rival powers.
Barbarossas 1538 attempt at capturing otranto might also be successful ittl, on the level of Mehmed IIs capture of the city in the 1480s- although Sicily I can see becoming an ottoman eyalet, Naples is a lot harder to believe. What could happen is after a successful landing at otranto, the sultan pushes forward and a situation similar to otl Hungary emerges with a rump kingdom of Naples in the north and ottoman control of apulia and Calabria roughly mirroring 11th century Byzantine Italy that leads to a constant state of raiding and low level destruction in southern Italy.
Alternatively, the fact that the Spanish now no longer have to fund Charles’s Austrian wars or contest ottoman control in the eastern Mediterranean, they’re able to focus on Algeria and securely dominate all its coastal cities, ending the threat of the Barbary Corsairs and through the increase in safe shipping, making Sicily and Sardinia much more integrated and slightly wealthier parts of the Spanish monarchy.
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I disagree with this a bit, while Naples and Spain wouldn't exactly be friends they still wouldn't want the Ottomans creeping around in the Mediterranean, combine that with a Venice that wasn't torn apart in a war like OTL as well as Italy not suffering as much from successive wars, we could see them form their own naval league in order to face the prowess of the Turkish navy, something Charles V, Ferdinand of Spain and Francis of France would at the very least support it and give some material and money in order to boost it.
While I do Sicily being invaded and maybe even falling into Ottoman rule briefly, it's also right next to Naples, so the minute the Ottomans are somehow unable to have their ships be constantly present in the island, it will be invaded by Naples every chance they get and with a possible and successful Spanish conquest and holding of the Maghreb, it turns the Western Mediterranean into a Christian Lake which allows for the full power of the Italian, Spanish and maybe even French navies(Since Francis wouldn't have the alliance with them OTL) to focus on fighting off the Ottoman navy and keeping them restricted towards the Eastern side, so maybe an earlier Lepanto?
Re Brittany, the ordinance was made after the edict of union was promulgated and French was already used by the Breton elites (and sometimes in administrative documents as well) so technically it didn't change a lot of things. Breton-speaking people kept speaking Breton in everyday life, while French was used in official documents. Of course if the ordinance isn't applied in Milan, the Estates of Brittany can ask to be exempt of it as well, as part of their privileges.
Really I see Naples being the primary anti ottoman agitator in the Mediterranean- given the Neapolitan claims to Jerusalem and Cyprus, I also wouldnt be surprised if they try and take Cyprus back from Venice and attempt to invade the morea. Perhaps Naples stands back and allows the ottomans to take Sicily just for a while, to prove that Spain is incapable of holding it and then swooping in to restore Christian rule.
The clearest model of Neapolitan ambitions would be to follow Charles of Anjou- get back Sicily sure, then agitate amongst the Catholic population of Albania, get proclaimed king of Albania, invade the morea to become Prince of Achaea, take Crete and Cyprus from Venice who obviously can’t protect themselves and then swing for Constantinople. That’s obviously not going to happen especially considering that at the moment they don’t even have Sicily, but a Neapolitan landing in Albania doesn’t sound too far fetched.
Indeed, especially given that Naples serves as France's primary ally in Italy, we could see France supporting them with money and even men(especially young nobles looking for glory by fighting against the Turkish Threat) in order to show support for a ally, strengthen their main ally in the region, weaken Spanish influence and show to Christendom they're also doing their part in driving away the Ottomans while the Austrians failed to prevent the fall of Vienna.
I don't think Naples would embark on these adventures at the moment. Right now the throne of Naples itself is unsecured, despite Charles's promises. I see them remaining in a defensive crouch, more concerned with maintaining the power of their chief backer, France, in Italy, and staying on the Pope's good side. It would only be after reconciliation with Spain that I could see them going on the offensive.
Even then I don't see them picking a fight with Venice, assuming Louis has brains. The Venetian fleet is far superior to anything Naples could muster. It might be better to trade recognition of Venetian claims to Cyprus for support in Albania and the Morea.
Regardless this is the height of Turkish power. Their army is professional and their treasury full, which is more than can be said for any Christian Kingdom. Thus I expect all major offensives into Greece and Albania to be repulsed. But that does not mean they will not be attempted.
Even then I don't see them picking a fight with Venice, assuming Louis has brains. The Venetian fleet is far superior to anything Naples could muster. It might be better to trade recognition of Venetian claims to Cyprus for support in Albania and the Morea.
Regardless this is the height of Turkish power. Their army is professional and their treasury full, which is more than can be said for any Christian Kingdom. Thus I expect all major offensives into Greece and Albania to be repulsed. But that does not mean they will not be attempted.
In theory I could see Charles and Francis cooperating to attack the Turks. Francis would attack in the Adriatic while Charles would press his niece's claim to Hungary. However both of them dislike and distrust each other too much for that to occur. However given the marriage of Isabella to the Dauphin, she might be able to broker such an arrangement with her brother sometime in the future.
Yh for the moment at least I’d be looking to the Turks when it comes to who’s leading major offensives.
Yes, Naples is in the same situation re: Denmark; it's in unsettled territory and really in no position to be embarking on grand causes abroad. Louis IV is seeking to claim Sicily and getting repulsed there, and his seat upon the Neapolitan throne remains shaky. There still remain pro-Spanish / pro-Imperial noble houses, and it's also worth remembering that Pius V's signing over of Naples into the hands of the Angevins was done somewhat under duress. What I mean by that is that he also signed secret clauses before the curia denouncing the treaty and proclaiming that he was being forced to do it. Were Charles V to recover his foundations in Italy and Pius V (or a future Pope) seek to depose Louis IV or his heirs, they very well might. I imagine the Neapolitan situation and the Italian situation in general to likely remain unsettled into the 1540s and 1550s.
This is the most important thing to remember here, re: the Turks. Their annual income is some 10 million ducats per annum, which dwarfs even what Charles V was drawing in IOTL across his dominions. To fight on an even level, it would require a level of cooperation amongst the Christian nation states of Europe that's just unrealistic in this period. There are too many divergent interests to hold such a coalition together.
I have no doubt that plans might be made for grand crusades and expeditions, as such causes were popular even into the 17th century, but if any of them are carried out would remain to be seen. If they are carried out, I expect most of them to be blunders that gain little for the Christian side.
Addendum: Map of Europe, 1539
Alright, attaching a new map: c. 1539, after the Congress of Lucca.
I'd also like to know: is there any areas / places you'd like to see any chapters? I've started on the next chapter focusing on England after John's return, but it's not set in stone. Is there anything you'd like to see before that? We can even go further afield than where we have, if you'd like, such as East Asia or the Americas.
We're also getting into the point where we're moving beyond OTL: is there anyone who like be /involved/ in the TL as a character or personage, such as a courtier or historian? By that, I mean being a person included in a quotation or in some form of the story? I'd love to involve some of you who have been around, either since the beginning or even since just yesterday! If so, just give me a name or title and I'll slip you into a quote coming up.
As for my plans for the next chapter, I'll leave you with a quote from Her Majesty, Queen Mary: “Alas, how I fear lest it be objected to us, as was to Tiberius by Bato: you, you it is that are in fault, who have committed your flocks not to shepherds but to wolves!"
I'd also like to know: is there any areas / places you'd like to see any chapters? I've started on the next chapter focusing on England after John's return, but it's not set in stone. Is there anything you'd like to see before that? We can even go further afield than where we have, if you'd like, such as East Asia or the Americas.
We're also getting into the point where we're moving beyond OTL: is there anyone who like be /involved/ in the TL as a character or personage, such as a courtier or historian? By that, I mean being a person included in a quotation or in some form of the story? I'd love to involve some of you who have been around, either since the beginning or even since just yesterday! If so, just give me a name or title and I'll slip you into a quote coming up.
As for my plans for the next chapter, I'll leave you with a quote from Her Majesty, Queen Mary: “Alas, how I fear lest it be objected to us, as was to Tiberius by Bato: you, you it is that are in fault, who have committed your flocks not to shepherds but to wolves!"
I would like to revisit Scotland! It’ll be nice to see if Alex closed his eyes and thought of Scotland in the bedchamber. Perhaps Scotland has also begun colonizing stuff? Or at least exploring the Americas. We can maybe also see his reaction to being surrounded by the Tudor-Oldenburg realms
Should we just pm you with ideas for book titles/quotes/names? That way it’ll maybe be a little more private who we insert if it’s ourselves heh
Should we just pm you with ideas for book titles/quotes/names? That way it’ll maybe be a little more private who we insert if it’s ourselves heh
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I already mentioned a desire to see internal developments at the French court.
Maybe we could have a chapter on Poland or Sweeden. They have lurked in the background but never really shown up in full.
Maybe a quick update focusing on Iberia. It could cover the Spanish and Portuguese courts as well as the situation in the Eastern Med.
It might also be good to see how defeat is effecting the Turks.
Personally I would hold off on going as far afield as East Asia when there is so much left to flesh out in Europe and the Near East.
Maybe we could have a chapter on Poland or Sweeden. They have lurked in the background but never really shown up in full.
Maybe a quick update focusing on Iberia. It could cover the Spanish and Portuguese courts as well as the situation in the Eastern Med.
It might also be good to see how defeat is effecting the Turks.
Personally I would hold off on going as far afield as East Asia when there is so much left to flesh out in Europe and the Near East.
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We can definitely revisit Scotland soon. Absolutely! If you have any ideas shoot them my way and I’ll absolutely include them.I would like to revisit Scotland! It’ll be nice to see if Alex closed his eyes and thought of Scotland in the bedchamber. Perhaps Scotland has also begun colonizing stuff? Or at least exploring the Americas. We can maybe also see his reaction to being surrounded by the Tudor-Oldenburg realms
Should we just pm you with ideas for book titles/quotes/names? That way it’ll maybe be a little more private who we insert if it’s ourselves heh
We’ll definitely be returning to France soon.
I love the idea of Poland as well as Sweden, they’ve had some brief appearances, but I think we can dedicate something fully to each of them. Same with Spain.
An Ottoman chapter is a good idea too, so I’ll put all of that into “to do” as I have some interesting ideas for the Ottomans down the line!
Can only King of Danes make suggestions related to Scotland? I have some ideas of my own.
I certainly don't mind
The more ideas the better - I haven't had the time to sit down and think of any great ones yet either
Am seconding Poland and Sweden!
Will admit to also wanting a look at Muscovy though, even if just a quick peek...
Will admit to also wanting a look at Muscovy though, even if just a quick peek...